Dissolved Acetylene Suppliers – Rent Free?

[JellyParticipant @jelly]

Does anyone know of a gas supplier who offers rent free Acetylene Cylinders other than Hobbyweld, or J&R Gasses; both of whom are unable to get cylinders filled at the moment.

Speaking to a couple of hobbyweld stockists, there's a 3 month backlog of existing customer's cylinder exchanges for dissolved acetylene, so they're not allowed to take on new customers for that product.

​

I don't use acetylene in the kind of volume which would ever really warrant renting cylinders from BOC/Energas/Air Liquide unless there's no other option, so I'm keen to search out any remaining rent free options in the UK.

Any help much appreciated.

​

(Before the inevitable comments: my insurance policy covers acetylene cylinders explicitly; I use oxy-propane for heating, brazing, and cutting already; and I'm using it for flame-spray welding and occasional fusion welding of mild steel, so there's no obvious substitute).

[JellyParticipant @jelly]

Looking for suppliers who are taking on new customers

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

I use these in West Yorkshire.

Steve.

Rentfree gas. 01904 862012.    07974 928680

Edited By Steviegtr on 27/09/2022 22:45:42

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Never used them, but would ALbee be a possibility; they have outlets in Sheffield and seem to be related to Air Liquide, so a major supplier.
https://albeegascylinders.com/

Bill

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

Posted by Steviegtr on 27/09/2022 22:24:08:

I use these in West Yorkshire.

Steve.

 

This is publicly accessible forum so might be advisable to blank out your name and address for security!

Edited By V8Eng on 27/09/2022 22:40:51

Edited By V8Eng on 27/09/2022 22:41:21

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by V8Eng on 27/09/2022 22:40:31:

Posted by Steviegtr on 27/09/2022 22:24:08:

I use these in West Yorkshire.

Steve.

This is publicly accessible forum so might be advisable to blank out your name and address for security!

Edited By V8Eng on 27/09/2022 22:40:51

Edited By V8Eng on 27/09/2022 22:41:21

Good idea. Never noticed.

[JellyParticipant @jelly]

Posted by Steviegtr on 27/09/2022 22:24:08:

I use these in West Yorkshire.

Steve.

Rentfree gas. 01904 862012. 07974 928680

Edited By Steviegtr on 27/09/2022 22:45:42

Thanks Steve.

Unfortunately, I spoke to him yesterday as it happens, apparently he's due 10 cylinders next week, all already spoken for, the next set are due in 3 months and he'll give me a call if he has any spare cylinders then.

Edited By Jelly on 28/09/2022 01:12:30

[JellyParticipant @jelly]

Posted by peak4 on 27/09/2022 22:31:40:

Never used them, but would ALbee be a possibility; they have outlets in Sheffield and seem to be related to Air Liquide, so a major supplier.
https://albeegascylinders.com/

Bill

Thanks, this is one I hadn't spotted yet, so there's hope.

The "Flame Ace" is perhaps a bit on the small side when thinking about draw-off rate, but if either Sheffield or Nottingham branches of Engweld stock or can order them, then at least it's an available option!

I do seem to remember there being some sort of widely used maxim about beggars not being choosers…

Edited By Jelly on 28/09/2022 01:11:59

Edited By Jelly on 28/09/2022 01:13:24

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Posted by Jelly on 28/09/2022 01:09:48:

Thanks, this is one I hadn't spotted yet, so there's hope.

Price is scary though £400 for the initial bottle and then £80 per refill
https://engweld.co.uk/category/albee-rental-free-gas-cylinders

Bill

[JellyParticipant @jelly]

Posted by Steviegtr on 28/09/2022 01:23:10:

I guess we all need to build a fracking rig in our back gardens. Cannot believe just 1 individual can cause all this. Yes Yes No politics, but grrrrrr.

Steve.

I believe it's something to do with:

• The French equivalent of the HSE executive shutting down a large number of filling plants built to a common design due to safety concerns identified after one of them had a fire and explosion.
• BASF cutting back on production in the acetylene plant (and the other 148 plants in that city-sized complex) at Ludwigshafen due to reduced gas and naptha supplies, reducing German, Dutch and Belgian supplies.
• BOC only filling their own cylinders at their shiny new Immingham acetylene manufacturing plant, the last commercial one in the UK.
• Air Products and Air Liqude taking time to negotiate the transport arrangements for using filling plants in Spain and Portugal, which would allow them to start reselling cylinders to Hobbyweld et al.

If you take away any one of those factors, and there wouldn't be a problem.

[JellyParticipant @jelly]

Posted by peak4 on 28/09/2022 01:46:26:

Posted by Jelly on 28/09/2022 01:09:48:

Thanks, this is one I hadn't spotted yet, so there's hope.

Price is scary though £400 for the initial bottle and then £80 per refill
https://engweld.co.uk/category/albee-rental-free-gas-cylinders

Bill

That rather defeats the point of rent free, I could get a cylinder nine times the size and pay the rental fees on it for 10 months for that price.

If you consider equivalently sized cylinders, £400 would buy a full of a BOC "size M" and the rent on it for 2 years 9 months!!!

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

Why not use propylene instead?

[JellyParticipant @jelly]

Posted by bernard towers on 28/09/2022 08:19:50:

Why not use propylene instead?

I already use oxy-propane for heating and cutting.

 

The acetylene is purely for welding processes where a true neutral flame is required, with the minimum of hydrogen to prevent embrittlement (which is where heavier hydrocarbon fuel gasses tend to fall down).

Edited By Jelly on 28/09/2022 08:38:45

[Anonymous]

Just spoken to my Hobbyweld agent; saying 10 weeks for acetylene. Being realistic that means next year. I'll have to postpone flanging the tender sides for my traction engines and work on something else.

Andrew

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Unless the chemistry spoils the process I use propane. Though loath to use propane, when BOC could not supply, a number of years ago I had no realistic choice and some of the tales about poor performance of the gas I have found to seem unfounded. Heating, cutting, brazing, welding Etc I have found little difference. Using the right nozzels or burners is important but the propane is readyly available and cheaper. As to the loss of bottle pressure due to the draw off rate this can be solved by manifolding 2 or 3 bottles together or warming them. Noel.

[Martin Johnson 1Participant @martinjohnson1]

Andrew,

Why not use oxy propane if it flanging? Not hot enough for welding, but fine for general cooking. I tend to use the heater nozzle on the gas axe for that sort of job as it gives a lot of heat but not too concentrated. I currently use 6kg bottles and haven't had any problems with freezing.

Martin

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

I said propylene which I think you will find is the replacement for dissolved acetylene.

[JellyParticipant @jelly]

Posted by bernard towers on 28/09/2022 14:55:54:

I said propylene which I think you will find is the replacement for dissolved acetylene.

Propylene isn't a straight replacement for acetylene, it still causes hydrogen embrittlement when fusion welding steel and cast iron, because of the increased proportion of Hydrogen in the fuel.

I mentioned propane because I have already substituted acetylene wherever it's not necessary, and propylene would just be a more expensive propane alternative.

 

As you can see below, the proportion of H2O in the combustion gasses of Propylene is much higher than Acetylene, and only slightly less than Propane.

C2H2 + 3 O2 → H2O + 2 CO2. (Acetylene)

Vs

C3H6 + 6 O2 → 3 H2O + 3 CO2 (Propylene)

Vs

C3H8 + 7 O2 → 4H2O + 3 CO2 (Propane)

It is specifically the fact that CO2 rather than H2O predominates in the combustion products which allows acetylene to be used for self-shielded fusion welding of steel and iron.

Edited By Jelly on 28/09/2022 15:39:02

[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

Would now be a good time to consider moving to TIG for welding? Needs more dexterity and coordination than gas welding but I find that it does everything I need up to the thicknesses that need arc welding.

[JellyParticipant @jelly]

Posted by Mark Rand on 28/09/2022 15:50:03:

Would now be a good time to consider moving to TIG for welding? Needs more dexterity and coordination than gas welding but I find that it does everything I need up to the thicknesses that need arc welding.

I find TIG to be hideously slow going, I simply don't have the fine motor skills needed to weld at a speed equivalent to those I maintain with gas.

Unless I turn the power well down and inch along painstakingly the vast majority of my attention has to focus on simply maintaining the arc and not on the puddle, which is no way to weld.

So whilst TIG is certainly a consideration for fusion welding of thin steel workpieces and delicate root passes on groove welds, if it becomes the only economically viable option… It's not something I would want to move towards right now.

Perhaps with night school classes or similar I might change my mind in the future, but a lot of time input would be needed to get anywhere with it.

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

Jelly

I think that you will find welding courses expensive. Been there, done that years ago. Probably horrendously expensive soon due to the rise in elec n gas prices.

John

[SpurryParticipant @spurry]

Having read the posts in this thread, would anyone have an idea of a gas that could be used for lead welding? (Apart from Oxy/acetylene of course).

TIA

Pete

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

For Lead, pretty much anything. Propane would be ideal. The melting temp of Lead is so low. I have even soldered with a Weller gun iron successfully.

Steve.

[SpurryParticipant @spurry]

Thanks for the info Steve. I was hoping to be able to achieve something like this. Lead welding.

I used to rent the cylinders from BOC but had to cease when the prices soared to silly levels, (for my amount of use)

Pete

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Posted by Spurry on 28/09/2022 19:33:15:

Thanks for the info Steve. I was hoping to be able to achieve something like this. Lead welding.

I used to rent the cylinders from BOC but had to cease when the prices soared to silly levels, (for my amount of use)

Pete

I have a roofer friend who does some very nice lead welding for his customers.
He uses Oxy-Propane for all his lead work.

If you're only interested in small torches, consider using a medical oxygen concentrator, rather than renting or buying bottles.
I've not really tried lead welding, but use Oxy-Propane for general heating, silver soldering etc, and the concentrator works fine for me, up to about 85% O2 @5l/m
Mine came off Gumtree from a glass bead maker, for les than £100, who was moving onto a larger system commercially.
Tuffnell Glass have some useful info.
https://www.tuffnellglass.com/contents/en-uk/d103.html

Bill

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