‘Desktop’ lathe

[Bodger BrianParticipant @bodgerbrian]

Some years ago a bought a chinese mini-lathe, which I installed in the spare room of my bachelor pad & used for many a happy hour. Roll on a few years, I've got married & the lathe is relegated to a shed at the bottom of the garden.
Despite attempting to insulate the shed, it's not an ideal working environment & the lathe has had little use since.
The wife's youngest has now left uni and has intentions to fly the nest in the next few months. As we will have a surplus of rooms, she has suggested, completely unprompted, that I might like to convert one of the spare bedrooms into a workshop. Naturally, I didn't think long about it!

Anyway, to the crux of my question. I'm considering taking the opportunity to upgrade the lathe at the same time. Now a know all the arguments about chinese lathes being perfectly fine once set up, and all lathes need to be set up to some extent etc etc but I would like if possible to buy something a bit more 'quality'.
I would love a Myford but obviously weight & size preclude that, so I've been looking at what else is available. Dismissing anything chinese, all I've mamaged to come up with are the following manufacturers….

Hobbymat MD65 – might take a while to find a decent one. The majority of those I've seen for sale look as if they've had a hard life.

Proxxon – I recall seeing on another thread that they're considered good quality but over-priced.

Wabeco – no idea of the quality but the prices seem eyewatering!

Cowells – a bit too small but if needs must…..
(Incidentally, are Cowells still in business? Their website doesn't look as if it's been updated for years & prices still mention VAT at 20%. On the other hand, someone must be still paying for the webhosting)

Has anyone got any suggestions of anything else I've missed?
Thanks
Brian

[Bodger BrianParticipant @bodgerbrian]

[Keith LongParticipant @keithlong89920]

Don't see why you're questioning the Cowells website, the price list states prices valid until 31/09/2015 (!!) and the UK vat rate is still 20%, also be aware that you have to add vat to the prices shown.

[Bodger BrianParticipant @bodgerbrian]

Whoops – missed that one!

I must admit that I thought VAT was 17.5%

Brian

[JAParticipant @ja]

Myford ML10? Obviously second hand but I am sure good ones come up for sale.

However I would love a Cowell if I lost my workshop.

JA

[Bodger BrianParticipant @bodgerbrian]

I'd dismissed a Myford (ML7) as being way too big & heavy. Presumably the ML10 isn't substantially different in that respect?

Brian

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

> VAT at 20%

Cripes! You gave me the heebie-jeebies there!

I think you may regret it if you change to a smaller lathe.

An ML7 isn't actually very much bigger than a mini-lathe and is much more affordable than a S7 – but while enjoying the quality you might still end up missing a few of the features of the mini lathe <ducks>.

If a Myford is too big, the if you want to go 'up market' and keep mini-lathe capacity you haven't many options.

The other choice is finding a smaller vintage lathe of about 3 1/2 capacity and doing it up, which could be a hobby in its own right.

Neil

(VAT registered…)

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Brian

I had an ML 10 for some years and got on well with it. By removing the motor and tail stock it is moveable single handed – upstairs though it would be a good move to enrol the help of a mate in exchange for some beer tokens! The M L10 does lack some of the refinements but is a solid little machine and capable of good work. I PXd it for a very low mileage Super 7 which suits me just fine – but I wouldn't want to move it upstairs!

Regards

Norman

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I wouldn't worry too much about weight up stairs other than getting things up there – not so sure about modern timber frame houses. To give you some idea I have had several lathes resting on top of a kitchen unit. Peatol, Hobbymat, ML7 and now a Boxford. Downstairs now though but I did have a Viceroy on the top floor complete with stand, all it's chucks, a full set of change wheels and 3hp motor. The cabinet spreads the weight so the floor loading isn't as high as people might think. Currently I have a miller with a 4ft table and rather hefty pillar drill up there along with a band saw and a radial arm saw – 2 actually but one is due to go. I wasn't keen on the Viceroy. Mentioned as I found a couple of odd facts about it.

In terms of getting things up there a lathe in pieces needn't be that bad. Myfords and Boxfords in particular but the Boxford bed etc is significantly heavier than a Myford and even with the bed 2 people might be a good idea. The myfords are more related to one's strength. Floor loading – it's easy to get several hundred kg of people standing in a small area even in a shed. By pieces I mean, bed, headstock, motor, tray, saddle etc. A stand for either is likely to need another person.

This approach might widen your scope somewhat but much depends on what you want to make. Going heavy my personal feeling is Boxfords have a lot to offer but can work out more expensive if they don't come with the right gear.

My personal feeling looking at Chinese lathes is that it isn't wise to go for ones that weigh much less than 60kg but much depends on what you want to do. I also get the impression that 100kg and plus is likely to be better but have no experiences with people I know at that weight.

The thicker kitchen work surfaces make excellent bench tops and the better quality kitchen units under them are pretty strong too. Must admit the one under my lathe probably came from the 60's so is wooden framed and ply topped – about 5/8".

John

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[Gordon TarlingParticipant @gordontarling37126]

I'd suggest you also keep a lookout for Emco lathes, either the Compact 5 or Compact 8. Whilst the modern ones are made in China, there are older ones around that were made in Austria. I bought a Compact 8 for less money than I received when I sold my Hobbymat MD65 – it's a much better lathe and seems to have had very little use. I wouldn't personally recommend a Hobbymat, as many of them are badly worn. The Compact 8 is just about liftable by one person, so shouldn't be a problem if you have to get it upstairs. If you are installing a lathe in an upstairs bedroom, transmitted noise to the room below will be your biggest problem. I bought a bungalow for a reason!

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Brian, don't dismiss the Chinese lathes, have a look at the Sieg , start at the Super C3, it weighs about 50 kg.

Ian S C

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

There is some very good work turned out on the Sherline range of lathes all would easily fit on a desktop. UK distributor is Millhill Supplies

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

An ML7 should be ok upstairs if you lay something like a bit of kitchen worktop under the stand to strengthen the floor. Many ML7s are put onto thin shed floors with no problems.

Edited By David Clark 1 on 25/08/2015 17:51:14

[Bodger BrianParticipant @bodgerbrian]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 25/08/2015 14:32:31:

If a Myford is too big, the if you want to go 'up market' and keep mini-lathe capacity you haven't many options.

That was more or less the conclusion I'd come to.

Brian

[Bodger BrianParticipant @bodgerbrian]

Posted by NJH on 25/08/2015 15:05:49:

I had an ML 10 for some years and got on well with it. By removing the motor and tail stock it is moveable single handed – upstairs though it would be a good move to enrol the help of a mate in exchange for some beer tokens! The M L10 does lack some of the refinements but is a solid little machine and capable of good work. I PXd it for a very low mileage Super 7 which suits me just fine – but I wouldn't want to move it upstairs!

Interesting…. I'd thought that the ML10 was the same size as the ML7 but just lacking some features. Having had a quick look, I see it is (was) a tad smaller. Definitely something to think about.

Brian

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

If you do buy an ML10 which for what they are do seem to be good lathes I would suggest you get the later version with the taper roller bearings – they can be changed if needed – not so the plain cast iron clamp up ones with a pinch screw on one side. If you look at ML10's on lathes co uk it's easy to see the difference. The taper rollers are adjustable anyway.

They too are a lot lighter with the head stock and tailstock off.

I'm surprised about comments about noise through the floor but this place was built in 1911 and we can't hear people walking about upstairs unless they tread rather heavily.

Floor loading – over a decent area even a boxford is much less than me standing on the floor., Seems I should be careful about what houses I go into, 98kg so maybe I shouldn't stand with my feet together. Even spread over a few square feet a lathe wont reach that sort of loading. Houses have to be built to stand higher loads than me.

Am I fat – afraid not.

John

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[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

For six years in the 1970s I lived in a new 4 bed house, I had a Myford S7 in our rear bedroom along with a Fobco drill,flooring was tongue and grooved timber,I removed the motor,top slide ,tailstock and two people carried it upstairs. We also had a 16 cubic foot freezer in the front bedroom which when loaded was probably heavier than the lathe.Did not reinforce the floor,just positioned the feet of the stand over the floor joists.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Brian,

I agree that the [later model] ML10 would seem your ideal choice.

I very seriously considered buying one myself, last year.

However: Do be sure to check the bed for wear. … Whilst researching them, I came across this brief document which mentions that [unlike the 7] the bed will only take one regrind.

Lovely little lathe … But buy a good one !!

MichaelG.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Nigel makes the point I was trying to make and the 7's are light lathes when dismantled – buying a good one can be tough in my opinion. They have suffered from their relatively low price – ideal for a cheap lathe to work to death. Some "model engineers" work at it full time too.

At well under 2 of me and even me and the wife I think this one shows what an increase in weight tends to do on the chinese lathes

**LINK**

I think that one doesn't have the low spindle speed gear problem – loads of noise to what I feel is an unacceptable level and uses a belt drive to change speed range. That can be a problem on some of them. I'm not sure on this one. They do seem to have a wider saddle than some as well which helps with stability and wear. That's where lathes like the ML10 fall down. It's no where near as wide as the Boxford arrangement though. Maybe some one has one and can comment on noise and vibration but the latter aught to be low on any lathe. I look every now and again and for real work this is the lowest one i would consider. It also from the review needs less titivating than some.

Usually removing the saddle, tail stock, motor and any shielding etc even the chuck reduces the weight of a lathe significantly. The saddle can usually be taken off by simply removing the end of the lead screw and winding it off. Some one to help keep it level can prevent it jamming on the half nuts.

I'd be rather surprised if the weight of this one caused an Ikea kitchen unit any problems if fitted with the thicker kitchen work surface. I've stood on a number of kitchen units.

I managed a boxford on my own out of the car with most of the bits on via a plank, moving it end on via a B&Q sack truck that was shorter than the lathe. That's not that difficult. I then removed bits but left the head stock on. I managed to get the head end on some step ladders that were lower than the bench it's on. I then managed to get the tail stock end on the bench with the idea of lifting one end at a time which is much easier. Then came the head stock end. I could lift it to bench heigh but found I couldn't get it completely over the bench or put it down again. Fortunately I had a 4ft long crow bar handy which my wife passed to me. If anyone does try a Boxford while in my case 2 people managed to get it into the car whole by sliding and lifting it with a plank an end at a time DON'T try to finally position it with the head stock on. It's a serious piece of metal. All it needs to get it off is a correctly bent combination spanner. The ME10 is the only bench lathe. The belt is best cut to remove the head on the under drive lathes which means replacing it with T – link belting. The cabinets are surprisingly heavy as well. The Myford 7 one isn't too bad.

John

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[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Nothing to do with me but there is an improved ML10 on ebay at the moment – a long bed Speed 10. Claimed less than 5hrs of use but it's serial number dates it to the early 80's. These have 18in between centres which is a useful improvement. It's on a simple stand but just comes with a 3 jaw chuck. It would be better if it came with change wheels really. It might take a while to build up a collection of used ones.

Personally with a claim like that I would use paypal for payment just in case. Yesterday I guided the seller through how to tell if it's a metric or imperial lathe. It isn't all that unusual for a dealer to not know much about what they sell. He was very helpful.

Price – my immediate reaction was too much but if virtually ex factory I don't know really. I suppose it's pretty good.

John

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[Bodger BrianParticipant @bodgerbrian]

Posted by John W1 on 26/08/2015 09:41:33:

Nothing to do with me but there is an improved ML10 on ebay at the moment – a long bed Speed 10.

Price – my immediate reaction was too much but if virtually ex factory I don't know really. I suppose it's pretty good.

Don't know if it's gone already but I can't find it. I was only interested in seeing what sort of a price these things go for – looking at the few I've seen advertised, £500 – £600 seems to be the sort of range. That seems low to me – is it because nobody wants this model or have I just looked at worn & tired examples?

Anyway, I won't be buying anything for a few months yet – thanks for all the comments.

Brian

[paul goughParticipant @paulgough22431]

Dear Brian, I too have been researching for industrial quality, not very much available in small machines nowadays unless you can afford the likes of Golmatic mills or Schaublin lathes. I have communicated with an owner of Wabeco machines and considers them satisfactory. However he and others have had some disappointing issues with the electrics of these machines and the disinterested attitude of Wabeco in Germany. Another Wabeco owner more or less warned me off them because of this. Unfortunately they are comparatively rare and it is difficult to make a definitive overall assessment because of this. Industrial quality is just that. Thus, it is expensive relative to hobbyist equipment. To balance this initial cost there is the likelihood that it will have a much lower depreciation rate than Chinese machines and should have a longer life as well as providing assured accuracy. The 'tribal' chant is to buy the BIGGEST you can get or afford. I'm not of this school. My personal opinion is to select a machine that has the capacity you NEED, now and for the reasonably foreseeable future. A quite small machine can be a very advantageous piece of equipment for small components especially if it is accurate. I regard the purchase of a lathe that can turn a 300mm flywheel when all the other machining would otherwise be comfortably done on a lathe half the size as unnecessary. For unusual items it is sensible to get it done by someone else with the appropriate equipment. Optimum machines appear on paper to be satisfactory, they are Chinese but supposedly to German specs and one would hope QC. They have only recently been made available in Australia so there are no comments by experienced users here yet. Nearly all the really worthwhile info I have received has been through personal communication with experienced owners, for which I am eternally grateful, unfortunately forums are a bit too public and sometimes owners aren't too keen to broadcast less than flattering comments about things. Likewise the hobbies magazines etc. are probably constrained in proffering serious critiques of equipment that their advertisers sell. Like all research and choices you have to be discerning. Know what your needs are first, and then commit the resources to achieve it. Good luck in your quest. Paul Gough.

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

Posted by Gordon Tarling 1 on 25/08/2015 16:21:46:

The Compact 8 is just about liftable by one person, so shouldn't be a problem if you have to get it upstairs.

1) In my slightly younger years, I put an old beach towel over one shoulder, threw a Compact-8 lathe (without tailstock) over my shoulder and took it up to the attic of a house in The Netherlands that I was renting. Steep, uncarpeted stairs, easier than getting someone to help.

2) I picked up another Compact-8, well equipped, for equivalent pricing to a local supplier flogging the 7x lathes.

These lathes are really quite well made, and I enjoy using them.

3) The Sherline lathes do look interesting; maybe for an interior workshop one could get one of these?

John.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

It's not as simple as that Paul. People may go for larger machines because they need the capacity and also because they want an industrial machine – which the chinese also make. The depreciation on industrial machines is high. The rest really fall into the category of big boys toys which is why you will see statements like light duty, hobby use, not suitable for continuous use – what ever that means. I've been known to use my machine daily for long periods for several days on the trot. Is that continuous ? I generally don't make terribly complicated things either. The quoted motor powers are interesting as well. Some one on here currently seems to be having problems with 450w. How on earth did my Boxford manage on 375? Not an usual value for a Myford either. In fact 1/4 hp can do a lot. Electronic variable speed as used on the hobby range is a cheaper option than others for all sorts of reasons. One not obvious aspect is more in a container and lower weight compared with back gear and countershaft arrangements. Going on sewing machine data brushless might offer some advantages but they spec input power as well – not what comes out of the motor. Gear head chinese lathes are also available – even hardened and ground which should mean that they just hum rather than make a lot of noise like the small lathes that have a metal speed reduction gear fitted to replace the plastic one. Gearhead lathes weigh and cost more but are more compact than back gear and countershaft arrangements, I'd guess that is a major advantage to importers.

I too have been looking at smaller machines. Wabeco – is that precision really. I would say no for this size of lathe because the tolerance of parts that need precision get tighter and tighter as the size goes down. Actually these figures don't look that much better than Warco's measured ones – if those are correct. This particular machine states 1.4kw – will it be – no, not in conventional machine tool terms. It does have some better design aspects but even those could be improved. They do provide a sensible reduction in speed via a belt drive which will give more torque. Others do too but some use a very noisy gear. Noise is interesting. This Wabeco can get loud enough to need ear defenders if used in a work place. Depreciation compared with others – massive but held up by current prices – just like the rest. As smaller "real" machines in some ways are in shorter supply resale values of the cheap end chinese are much higher than the were a few years ago. As people are starting to break lathes down and sell the bits as they make more money this aspect may get worse as time goes by. I'd guess they are wasting their time and will make less.

Opti – the German retailers came up with the bright idea of stating local spindle run out a long long time ago. Trouble is in terms of over all accuracy it's meaningless. They look rather pay more and get less but perhaps the hidden surfaces are machined to a better standard and maybe they use hardened bearings. Maybe the chinese generally do. At one time the cheap end definitely didn't. One of the aspects I find odd is no signs of screw cutting indicators unless I have missed something. It's easy to get a mini lathe that comes with one even for metric threads. Their baby lathe has the same open thread on the compound slide as the others. At a certain weight they suddenly mention that the bed casting is matured for at least 6 months. Rolls Royce used to leave their engine blocks lying around for several years. All real lathe manufacturers have done that sort of thing as it's the best way of destressing castings. People who make there own tooling are sometimes painfully aware of this aspect. I have a home made rotary table. Several years after making it I did a little bit more machining on it which involved removing a strap – the casting cracked. It still works as it should but illustrates why it's better to fabricate.The very nature of cast iron varies as well. The term can cover all sorts of variations as can induction hardening.

The biggest problem in this area is that in the hobby area people might conclude that they shouldn't buy a new lathe at all. Some people are perfectly happy with them as they come. Some regard them as a casting kit and fix them which is likely to involve some hand work or further machining of the parts. Some cure work problems with emery and a hand file. There is a need to be realistic or say go buy a properly reconditioned or brand new Schaublin but even those have their but aspects as all machines do. Really for some one who is starting out it's probably best to go out and buy. Eventually some one who does that will realise what the problems really are and if not happy fix it or sell it and buy another. If it's going to be fixed it would be best to make it worth while doing which I am afraid will have it's machine weight aspects. When a lathe is actually used the need for other bits and pieces crop up. Many will of use in the future but parts for the actual lathe probably wont be so in some respects lathes that come equipped with the usual work holding bits and pieces are a better option. At one time I understand some retailers were removing these from the boxes from china and selling them separately. They generally don't now.

To be continued.

John

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[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I managed to sum this all up to some one on an astro forum. It's a bit like telescope mounts and even telescopes themselves. Mounts like the EQ1 and even the EQ2 and 4 can disappoint very quickly as can many telescopes. This doesn't stop them from being sold or bought. He knew exactly what I meant and the thread was closed and he decided to buy a sensibley sized chinese machine within his budget and get some real experience on the basis that selling it later means costs will be relatively low and if for instance he decides to buy a used machine which can be a mine field in it's own right he will be capable of trying it out. If another new one he will be in a far better position to realise what he needs and what the machines can do. This area is a lot like the astro one. Even throwing more money at it doesn't always achieve anything. In many areas brand names attract prices that don't really offer any significant advantage over others. This may be true in Wabeco's case it might not. They certainly have more power and in some respects a more sensible design but are they really that much better? You'd have to buy one to find out. Actually I would have my doubts in terms of really justifying current prices but if marginally better then they can charge a lot more if the want.

Maybe a boxford test result might help. A machine to this spec now would probably cost over £10k. Size would partly be immaterial. Take a look at the price of a small Schaublin which will reflect the increased precision of small lathes. I've used a DSG true to better than 0.0015" over around 5ft centres – truly spectacular, price astronomic. Heavy as it needs to be to even hold that sort of accuracey.

John

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No time to check my often weird typo's – wife calls.

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