Cost of Brass

[David NobleParticipant @davidnoble71990]

As I have mentioned in my introduction, I have been away from engineering for around 20 years. Looking at making my first clock, I have been checking on prices for the frames. Wow! the cost has certainly increased more that I imagined.

Edited By David Noble on 15/12/2018 15:49:21

[David NobleParticipant @davidnoble71990]

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Yes it does rather focus the mind, David

A small-ish clock with rectangular plates might be a wise place to start.

Have you seen any designs that you fancy ?

MichaelG.

[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

Not only has the cost of brass gone mad,so has the price of beer,diesel and almost anything else you might be bothered with ! I think they call it "Inflation" or something like that !

I used to buy silver solder some years ago,in order to buy it now,I,d need to get a Bank Loan. Many suppliers dont even sell it any more.

That,s what happens when you drop off the bandwagon.

[David NobleParticipant @davidnoble71990]

Hello Michael, Weeel, I have been looking at the John Wilding Large Wheel Clock but the large wheel is too big for me to cut. My other thought was the Elegant Scroll Skeleton Clock. A bit adventurous do you think?

Thanks for your reply, David

[David NobleParticipant @davidnoble71990]

Thanks for the reply Larry. Looks like I'll just have to take a deep breath

David

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by David Noble on 15/12/2018 17:00:48:

Hello Michael, Weeel, I have been looking at the John Wilding Large Wheel Clock but the large wheel is too big for me to cut. My other thought was the Elegant Scroll Skeleton Clock. A bit adventurous do you think?

.

David,

I would not presume to suggest that either was 'a bit adventurous' for you …

I do, however, think that either of those would have the potential to waste a lot of Brass.

MichaelG.

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

Hi David, Just some food for thought – I know brass is the traditional clock wheel material of choice and it is easier to work than many metals. However it is very costly and also it tarnishes. With modern machines and cutters cutting metals tougher than brass is really not difficult. Stainless steel comes to mind as a good candidate for the following reasons. One, availability / cost – 300 series stainless is widely available in many shapes and sizes and in sheets at much lower cost than brass, but higher cost than mild steel. Two, strength/corrosion resistance – it will not corrode or tarnish in normal conditions and is much stronger than brass. You could make a mild steel clock but eventually the steel would rust unless it was oiled religiously. A clock made in stainless would likely last for centuries and still look as good as the day it was finished. Three, stainless is slightly heavier than mild steel but lighter than brass, so in theory, wheel inertia will have less effect in a stainless clock than in a brass one on timekeeping, if accuracy is your goal.

And of course you can paint stainless steel brass colour if you just have to have the traditional brass look (and when the paint chips off the teeth, they won't rust! )

Standing by to be drawn and quartered by the clock making purists. Again my comments are just food for thought – if I ever build a clock it will likely be all stainless (no brass coloured paint!) .

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Plates – why not aluminium? And use small ball bearings instead of conventional pivots. More scientific instrument style.

Wheels – duralumin or similar alloy. The great wheel of Clock B is made of dural, if it's good enough for Martin Burgess…

Stainless feels like it may be hard to machine to me.

Personally I find the highly polished brass effect of many clocks most off-putting.

[David NobleParticipant @davidnoble71990]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 15/12/2018 18:54:19:

Posted by David Noble on 15/12/2018 17:00:48:

David,

I would not presume to suggest that either was 'a bit adventurous' for you …

I do, however, think that either of those would have the potential to waste a lot of Brass.

MichaelG.

Michael, ROFL Brilliant

David

[David NobleParticipant @davidnoble71990]

Hello Jeff, Yes stainless is certainly food for thought, thank you. I have worked in stainless quite a bit in the past.

David

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

A metal of your choice and anodise it?

Just thinking aloud

Electroplating?

[David NobleParticipant @davidnoble71990]

Posted by John Haine on 15/12/2018 22:20:22:

Plates – why not aluminium? And use small ball bearings instead of conventional pivots. More scientific instrument style.

Wheels – duralumin or similar alloy. The great wheel of Clock B is made of dural, if it's good enough for Martin Burgess…

Stainless feels like it may be hard to machine to me.

Personally I find the highly polished brass effect of many clocks most off-putting.

Hello John, dural is another good thought. I can see more research is needed.

Thanks, David

[David NobleParticipant @davidnoble71990]

Posted by Ady1 on 15/12/2018 23:18:13:

A metal of your choice and anodise it?

Just thinking aloud

Electroplating?

Mmm, a purple clock, OK just a thought

[John ReeseParticipant @johnreese12848]

Remembering prices from 20 or more years ago and comparing with current prices does bad things to one's blood pressure.

I remember single scoop ice cream cones and 7 oz draft beer for $.05.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I suppose you could always trepan a series of rings from the same piece of brass sheet and fit then to aluminium spokes and probably add a matching brass hub, suitable Loctite should keep them all together then you get the working and running properies of brass for easy tooth cutting and save on the brass.

You are not really wasting the brass, just building up stock to make smaller items with.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by larry phelan 1 on 15/12/2018 17:00:06:

… I think they call it "Inflation" or something like that !

.

Here's a little snippet of history: **LINK**

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3166507.stm

MichaelG.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by John Reese on 16/12/2018 02:10:32:

Remembering prices from 20 or more years ago and comparing with current prices does bad things to one's blood pressure.

I remember single scoop ice cream cones and 7 oz draft beer for $.05.

But don't forget that wages were also low in the same proportion! In 1956 the average UK weekly wage was £9.25 per week, and a pint of beer cost 1s (£0.05). A man who drank 3 pints of beer a day was spending 10% of his income on booze. The average UK house cost £2300 and only 8% of the population could afford one. 65% could not afford a car.

Things were considerably easier in the US at that time. The weekly wage in 1956 averaged about $70. With the exchange rate at £2.5 pounds per dollar, the typical 1950s American about 3 times better off than the average Brit.

Don't worry too much about inflation John. Your blood pressure need not go sky high. Although prices rising out of control is very bad, a state of mild inflation is ideal because it encourages spending and stimulates the economy. (People rush out to buy before prices go up again.) Even a mild deflation (prices falling) causes severe difficulties. Because people delay spending money because goods will be cheaper tomorrow, money drops out out of circulation, businesses fail, and people lose their jobs.

Interesting that best tactics for dealing with inflation and deflation are not what 'common sense' would suggest is financial good management. However, national economies do not follow exactly the same rules as a household budget. Another example: President Trump has successfully boosted the US economy by selling the idea that he will 'make America great again'. His words inspire confidence at home causing like minded folk to risk spending in 'this economy' again, causing a recovery. (Hurrah!) So far it's working, but my view is he is blowing a bubble – there is no substance behind his rhetoric. It's a collision between hot emotion and cold facts. Not only might the recovery go pop, but it's being done at the cost of annoying America's friends, and it risks crashing the West's economic system. Of course, we wise Brits would never vote for a major change of direction without thinking it through very carefully first…

Dave

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

I wouldn't user Dural as although the copper in it makes it harder it is more prone to corrosion. Plain Al is ok and if you can get it alocromed looks for t of brass like.

These people even sell a 1 litre kit for alocrom. I was thinking it might be unavailable due to HSE but on the other hand it makes the brass option cheap again.

Edited By Bazyle on 16/12/2018 11:35:39

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

I gather that Clock B in an uncompleted state spent many years in Martin Burgess' workshop but the dural great wheel on the machine now displayed in the NMM is the original.

I always thought aluminium bronze would be a good material for clock parts, but no idea of the price.

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Brass was traditionally used for frames and wheels for the simple reason that the friction between brass and steel is low. Modern precision clocks often use unlubricated minature stainless steel or ceramic ball bearings for the pivots so you could take that approach and use aluminium or stainless for the frames. The wheels however usually run against steel pinions so it's probably best to stick to brass there as, although the action is mainly rolling there will inevitably be some sliding at the teeth.

Russell.

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