Complicated post

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Ketan, Redsetter and others make an important point when they ask what the mill is for.

If needed for pragmatic reasons, it's possible to make a value judgement. That is the size and type of machine can be matched to a particular need and budget. In making the match a professional time-is-money outfit would be unlikely to buy a hobby machine, and a hobbyist would be unlikely to spend serious money on a pastime! Is there a particular goal? If not read on.

Model Engineering covers a huge range of interests. Tools may be bought for emotional as well as technical reasons. Nothing wrong with emotion, including nostalgia, as long as its open and honest. I'm into metalwork for interest and experimentation. I don't work against the clock. My efforts are mostly mid-range, neither small precision clockmaking or anything bigger than a brake drum. I don't make models other than as a way of improving my skills. Chinese kit does what I need for the money I'm prepared to spend and it was easy to buy. Others specialise in Locomotives, Stirling Engines, or Traction engines, restorations, or customisation work etc. Their work may be to run, or for display, or to win competitions, or personal gratification but the emphasis is on results. Their needs aren't the same as mine. Another group potters around making improvements to tools and workshop without necessarily making much, indulging a relaxing interest rather chasing targets. Then there are people retired from industry who want to carry on machining at home. And I guess we've all met the guys who buy kit for the bragging rights!

Add to the mix perfectionists, fuss-pots, bodgers, beginners, experts, engineers from non-mechanical fields (computing, electronics, electrical, chemistry…), ex-scientists, ditherers, thrusters, gorillas, the over and under-confident, racists & fanboys, moderns & traditionalists, people who hate or love theory, and the vocal and the silent. It's no wonder there are differences of opinion about which machine to buy!

My advice is to understand and service your needs whatever they are. Not mine or anyone else's. A small Chinese Mill might be just what I need, but rubbish for you. At the extreme, don't buy Chinese if the plan is to put down that guy at the club who bangs on endlessly about his marvellous Connoisseur – but never makes anything! To deal with him you need something spectacular, like a Dean Smith & Grace or a tool-room Holbrook in as new condition with a complete set of accessories!

But if you're a beginner, keen to learn or to do more advanced home-metal work, you really don't need anything special to make a start. A new hobby lathe or mill is a good place to begin, a low risk, low fuss purchase. They're not a once in a lifetime purchase if an upgrade is wanted later.

Life is too short to agonise over buying tools. It's more fun to get on with it. Unless of course debating problems on the internet is what keeps you happy! Armchair engineering is a truly great hobby too…

Dave

[peak4Participant @peak4]

One more thought to chuck in the pot, I've previously mentioned my own machinery, which it looks may not be appropriate for you.
A good second hand machine, depending on its source, may come quite well equipped, thus saving you lots of cash on tooling and vices etc.
Carefully selected and priced, it has a pretty much fixed value, whether you are the third, fourth or fifth owner.
If you decide it's not for you, then you should be able to sell it on for little different to what you paid.

You will however have gained experience, and by then know why it wasn't for you, and thus what to look for in the replacement machine.

If you buy the wrong machine new, you will always be selling at a loss.

Bill

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

There are always machines that we wish we had or could buy. In training, I spent a lot of time on Cinicinattis, vertical and horizontal. Lovely machines! But a total overkill, and not really suitable, for drilling 2.5 mm holes before tapping M3!

But when I wanted / needed a Mill, I had neither the money, space or REAL need for such a machine. I settled for a Warco Economy, because it was the largest that would fit into the then shop (The present one was made higher just so that belt cover could be opened with the head at the top of the column ) and it was as much as I was prepare to spend.at the time.

No, it is not ideal. Realigning every time that the head is moved up or down the round column is a PITA, but it suffices for my needs. Really, I would like a dovetail column, or, of there was space a knee machine, AND a horizontal. But you can't have everything.

Whether you buy new, or a secondhand machine, there can be problems. The new Warco shredded the primary belt within six months. The replacement belt, after the motor and pulley were aligned has lasted for twenty years!

The original Chinese belt is still in good condition.

Decide what work you expect to do with the machine, and then buy one with the features that you think that you need, but a little bigger, to accommodate your horizons which will expand as you gain experience.

Buying a machine in haste will probably mean that you spend a lot of time regretting it.

I admire Ketan for saying "If you will not be happy with this machine; don't buy it" He may lose a sale, but avoid having an unhappy customer who complains to all his friends, and anyone else who will listen.

No matter what you buy, do not expect perfection. The machine tool that is ideal for everyone has yet to be designed, let alone manufactured. Nor, for the prices that we pay for essentially hobby machines, you cannot expect Toolroom precision, quality or durability.

The machine that you buy is your personal choice, for good or ill. Choose carefully, so that you are happy with you purchase for years to come.

Howard

[Alan Waddington 2Participant @alanwaddington2]

I'm confused, that Warco Super Major looks bigger than a Tom Senior ?

Reckon until you've had a few, you won't really know what you want.

Nothing against Chinese machinery, (Although the quality of the few iv'e had has been questionable) but resale value is generally low, so if you do find it's not what you want, be prepared to lose money. You can buy a lot of quality used iron for nearly £3K

Find a decent english, (or indeed German, Swiss or many others) machine and you will not lose if you decide to swap it.

Personally not a fan of round column mills, couldn't live without a quill feed, wouldn't want a MT head, find changing belts a PITA and don't have the time or patience to only take light cuts.

Iv'e found all that out from owning a succession of Mill's with some or all those features

 

Edited By Alan Waddington 2 on 06/03/2020 17:35:24

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

The nice thing about industrial mills is the are heavy enough to not vibrate when cutting, most hobby mills will suffer from vibration at least some of the time. Powered rapid traverse on all axes makes a mill a pleasure to use. A mill I lust after is a Deckel FP1 or one of the many clones like the Alexander Master Toolmaker. These are not toys but usually cost a bit as well.

Mike

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Well can I say a huge thank you to all who have contributed there own 2 pence worth to this thread. My 1st comment is to Ketan Swali. Whome I assume either owns or runs ARC tools. You totally misunderstood my post. I said I had looked at most of the Chinese machines. Not that I had any definite choice. Of which I think from comments, the Warco has moved back a notch. My main point was that, yes i probably do have enough room to get a old large mill in the garage.

But it would be futile as i cannot think i will ever want to bore etc anything so big that it would need such a machine.

I do not want a very small one & could go down that route only to find it is too small for me. I have just been looking at the ARC site & there is one mill in there that does seem to have everything i would ever need. It is the Sieg SZ3.5DZP. Seems to have plenty of power & lots of nice features of a modern machine. Does anyone know if they have a showroom. Or mail order only.

Steve.

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember19781]

[This posting has been removed]

[Brian HParticipant @brianh50089]

Arc Euro Trade Ltd.

10 Archdale St, Syston, Leicester LE7 1NA

0116 269 5693

You could give them a ring to see if they have one in stock. Fingers crossed!

Brian

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Or just look at the website and see they are awaiting more stock.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

I have read and re-read Ketan’s posts. I’m of the opinion that….

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Well I've had a good look on you tube & cannot find many recent revues of the Sieg milling machines. Most are a few years old & none of the model I was looking for. Some had said to measure how much room I have in the garage. I have not put up the dividing wall yet. The roof height is 2.4Mtrs. the wall length after I have fitted a large doorway will be around 2.6 Mtrs. So room is not a problem.

Steve.

[Anonymous]

Posted by JasonB on 06/03/2020 13:18:32:

……….and then there was the other chap who stalled a bridgeport with a facemill so can't be that belts and 3-phase motors are that much better at slow speeds.

That'd be me then. No idea how you manage to translate stalling the mill due to be over-ambitious into a problem with belts and 3-phase motors.

Andrew

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Talking of stalling. I ran the Myford yesterday at 1.5Hz doing infil on a ring. I tried to stall the chuck by hand. I could not stop the chuck from rotating however hard I gripped the body. So I take back some of my earlier comments on other threads, saying the inverter with a 3 phase motor has low torque at low frequency. It has plenty.

Steve.

[Alan Waddington 2Participant @alanwaddington2]

NTDWM but for sale on facebook marketplace. £1600 Would make a great first mill, and no chance of losing money on it……

[RedsetterParticipant @redsetter]

Posted by Steviegtr on 06/03/2020 23:34:41:

Talking of stalling. I ran the Myford yesterday at 1.5Hz doing infil on a ring. I tried to stall the chuck by hand. I could not stop the chuck from rotating however hard I gripped the body. So I take back some of my earlier comments on other threads, saying the inverter with a 3 phase motor has low torque at low frequency. It has plenty.

Steve.

If I read that correctly, you tried to stop a rotating chuck by hand. Do not, ever, do that.

You are a danger to yourself . Stay away from machinery..

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 06/03/2020 23:23:37:

Posted by JasonB on 06/03/2020 13:18:32:

……….and then there was the other chap who stalled a bridgeport with a facemill so can't be that belts and 3-phase motors are that much better at slow speeds.

That'd be me then. No idea how you manage to translate stalling the mill due to be over-ambitious into a problem with belts and 3-phase motors.

Andrew

There was a comment earlier that geared or belted were better to run flycutters and facemills than a variable DC.

Of the two I would say a belt can be better than geared with the facemills if the work or cut is narrow due to the lower engagement making the gears knock. This applies to "old style" as well as new which may have a 2 speed range option via gears to allow the DC motors to work at their best.

Which brings up the fact that the Warco that was originally mentioned is certainly in the head a design that has been around for many years, often as a Lux or RF machine and is more suited to the old ways of working which is a slower rotating tool and a heavier cut for which the fact it weights 3 times as much as teh SX3.5 will help.

The SX3.5 on the other hand is Sieg's latest benchtop machine and to get the best out of it Steve would be best to forget looking at a lot of youtube videos or reading the old often suggested books. With a spindle that can do 5000rpm as opposed to the Warco's 1700rpm it is better suited to smaller cutters or depths of cut but run and fed far faster.

The usual comment is that an old english machine can remove metal faster and it possibly can on a big cut but if you are working on say aluminium or even low carbon steel you are going to be limited to some extent by not being able to run cutters at anywhere near their capability so will have to use slower feeds to keep chiploads similar, particularly with carbide. So you may win in one respect but loose in another. Another reason for the OP to think about what he intends to do and how he hopes to do it before deciding on what to buy. It is also capable of taking quite large cuts with a facemill in ali, steel and even stainless running at the full 5000rpm as I have seen the videos but this is not recommended as best practice.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Steve,

I am am a little confused now by your last post.

First, I still think that you should read the MEW beginners series on milling, written by Jason, starting in MEW 260/1 onwards. Jason also explains most of the points quite well in his last post here at 7.21 am today. The SX3.5DZP works in a similar way to the SX2.7 which Jason used to write the milling series articles. The SX3.5DZP has more torque along with some small bells and whistles.

As Jason said, SX3.5DZP is new to the seen. You probably wont find anything at present on You Tube. We are the first company in the world to test it out. Rest of the distributors around the world were sitting on the fence while I put it through tests.

After I was happy, we put it out into the market place, restricting sales to customers with whom we have good relations, and/or choosing who we sold the machines to. In case of failure, we needed their co-operation to work with us to analyse and solve the problems. The first batch had various problems on certain machines, which were fixed by us, with help from our customers and SIEG. In terms of profit, it was a write-off, but we were prepared for the hit. All of those machines are with their respective buyers, alive and well. One may still come back. The second batch was corrected, we had less issues than the first. The third batch, all went well, and we are sold out. At present, we have no idea for when the next batch will come.

We are aware that factory now has large orders for the SX3.5 in its various forms – D, Z, P, from other distributors around the world, especially from the U.S. – their biggest market. It is possible that Axminster will have it soon too – but difficult to say. For the three year warranty comfort, you may be better considering to buy it from them, if and when they have it. We only offer one year warranty.

You are welcome to visit us Monday to Friday 10am to 4pm, and Saturdays from 10am to 12.30pm. We have the machines on display. I am uncertain if we will be able to turn the SX3.5DZP on, as we may have robbed the inner to remove certain parts to fix some of the problems to which I refer above. We may be awaiting replacement parts or arrange a time to fix the model on display.

If you do decide to visit, do call and let us know when you intend to come. Ian, I or a member of our team will make ourselves available to see you. After you see the machine and talk to us, you may decide that the machine or ARC are not suitable for your needs, or, we may respectfully decline your interest in the machine, if we still feel that the machine is not suitable for you. We do have conversations with potential buyers pre-purchase to ascertain suitability, especially for this machine as it is a new addition. There are many occassions when we have directed potential buyers elsewhere. Because of the reasons mentioned above, I would like to make you aware that when we had these machines in stock, we have declined around five orders for the SX3.5DZP, and in most cases the potential buyers have understood, with one potential buyer complaining to SIEG. SIEG requested us to re-consider, but we politely refused.

We do not take back-orders. You can click on the 'notify me when back in stock' link on our website for this machine and put in your email address. Once the machine is back in stock, the system will automatically send you an email to say it is back in stock.

Yesterday, Roger Warren (WARCO) and I were discussing various issues. During our conversation I asked him if he had the machine you were considering in stock, and he said that he did. Like ourselves, they too have delivery issues for certain machines at present, on a larger scale than us as their range is extensive, but the machine you were considering is in stock in the U.K., and he will be happy to service your requirement.

Keeping what I have said above in mind, I hope you will agree that you will be better served for your machine requirement with WARCO, Chester, WABICO, as all three have models which already have a very longer history, rather than the SX3.5DZP which has just come to market.

As we have not met you and as we can only go by understanding the posts you have made so far on this forum; based on your limited experience of lathework and mill, combined with what I have said above for this machine, I would respectfully say that the probability of your considering this machine, or our selling you it, are both low. Either you or we as ARC may change our view if and when we talk face to face, which is also a possibility.

Ketan at ARC

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Alan Waddington 2 on 06/03/2020 23:37:56:

NTDWM but for sale on facebook marketplace. £1600 Would make a great first mill, and no chance of losing money on it……

That is a good suggestion and a great bargain Alan.

Ketan at ARC.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Steviegtr on 06/03/2020 20:09:11:

… The roof height is 2.4Mtrs … So room is not a problem.

Steve.

2.4m is helpfully higher than my ordinary 2.25 ceiling but keep a close eye on height if looking to buy a big mill. Door lintels and light fittings are likely to reduce head-space, but I've found it much easier to manoeuvrer a heavy machine when there's plenty of room in all directions. Always possible to squeeze a machine into its minimum envelope but it can be hard work, especially if a top-heavy machine has to be tilted. (Don't be near a falling machine tool!)

And when planning space don't forget maintenance; awkward to remove the head when it's too close to the ceiling. (I remember a post where a chap cut a hole in his to get a little more wriggle room.)

Must be wonderful to have a big workshop where a forklift can drive an awkward machine straight in from the delivery lorry and plonk it down in exactly the right place. Much harder to move the same machine up a flight of steps, through a garden gate, across a vegetable patch, and into a cramped wooden shed. People manage, but careful planning reduces the need for bad language! Be extra wary of heavy moving when inexperienced – it definitely gets easier and safer with practise.

Dave

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Good pile of tooling, vice, clamps etc with that Senior. Thats the thing with buying a bare new mill – you can then spend as much again on all the accessories you need to use it to full potential.

[David NobleParticipant @davidnoble71990]

If it helps, I bought an SX2.7 mill from ARC and have been impressed with the machine and with customer service. Feel free to contact me if I can help.

David

[Anonymous]

JasonB: Errr, I'm not about to rush out and buy a mill from Arc; don't really need a fourth milling machine. Anyway, I'm probably on Ketan's no sell list as an awkward customer.

Agreed that on the CNC mill I tend to run smaller cutters at faster speeds than I do on the Bridgeport. Partly because the CNC mill is VFD/motor so slow speeds mean a loss of power. The Bridgeport is limited by power (1.5hp) and lack of rigidity. But I can still run it to maximum power. When I get time I'll try faster speeds on aluminium. The horizontal mill is feedrate limited, but it's till possible to take cuts in steel that use all the available power (5hp). Seems fine with a geared drive on interrupted cuts. I guess it depends upon the quality and type of gear.

Andrew

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 07/03/2020 10:30:43:

JasonB: Errr, I'm not about to rush out and buy a mill from Arc; don't really need a fourth milling machine. Anyway, I'm probably on Ketan's no sell list as an awkward customer.

Andrew

lol no… but you are on the industrial gorilla list … one step up from awkward

Ketan at ARC

[Douglas JohnstonParticipant @douglasjohnston98463]

Posted by Ketan Swali on 07/03/2020 09:16:20:

Keeping what I have said above in mind, I hope you will agree that you will be better served for your machine requirement with WARCO, Chester, WABICO, as all three have models which already have a very longer history, rather than the SX3.5DZP which has just come to market.

My goodness, you don't often get that degree of candour from dealers. Arc are clearly considering the long game, and I for one applaud that.

Doug

[Anonymous]

Posted by Ketan Swali on 07/03/2020 10:41:56:

…. one step up from awkward

Can't argue with that assessment!

Andrew

[Author]

Posts