Cheap 3 in 1 tig welder – any one used one?

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

 

Posted by Ajohnw on 16/12/2016 13:50:25:

Help !

I would seem sensible to get a single stage regulator and a flow meter. This is one for instance

**LINK**

But I take it that the gas connection on a cylinder comes out at 90 degrees so to get the flow regulator pointing upwards the bottle would have to be lying on it's side.

Am I missing something or does it need another connection of some sort as well? This one is preset to 3bar too. Some come set to 2 bar.

The same sort of arrangement is available from lots of sources and all seem to be the same..

John

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Hi John.

When I was working we changed gas suppliers and their cylinder outlet was 90 deg out compared to the previous ones.

The gas suppliers soon got very good right angle adapters for us.

Edited By V8Eng on 16/12/2016 14:44:14

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

LOL Too much internet browsing for the things. Brain fade. The gauge end of the one I linked to can be rotated in any direction as can the flow gauge. That means it can be vertical.

The only problem with that listing is a tail for the pipework. He sells right hand and left hand tails or one of each. I'm pretty sure it should be right hand but why not mention it in the listing.

Some where I saw a cheapish 2 bar preset regulator and a flow gauge intended for 2 bar. Also 14L/min max which I think is more suitable for tig. It doesn't seem to be in my browser history.

John

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[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

He doesn't because rh is for non flam and lh is for flam gases?

[Robert NewmanParticipant @robertnewman73767]

I was considering one of these see what Santa thinks

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I bought of a place called ToolsToday. Both parts by Parweld. The flow regulator is 0-14 l/min. I just can't find the other one I had seen so the regulator is preset at 3 bar. Many of them seem to be.

Painless place to buy from – click on paypal and they even get the address from them – unlike some.

John

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[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Posted by Ajohnw on 16/12/2016 13:50:25:

But I take it that the gas connection on a cylinder comes out at 90 degrees so to get the flow regulator pointing upwards the bottle would have to be lying on it's side. Am I missing something

I'm not the font of knowledge but in my 30 years or so experience of BOC and Air Liquide, the outlet was always vertical (coaxial with the cylinder axis). Probably not a great surprise to find that BOC regulators have outlet and inlet at 90 degrees with gauges appropriately oriented.

Murray

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

Posted by Muzzer on 16/12/2016 23:42:44:

Posted by Ajohnw on 16/12/2016 13:50:25:

But I take it that the gas connection on a cylinder comes out at 90 degrees so to get the flow regulator pointing upwards the bottle would have to be lying on it's side. Am I missing something

I'm not the font of knowledge but in my 30 years or so experience of BOC and Air Liquide, the outlet was always vertical (coaxial with the cylinder axis). Probably not a great surprise to find that BOC regulators have outlet and inlet at 90 degrees with gauges appropriately oriented.

Murray

If you check out Air Products cylinders, (in the 10L size) you will find the control valve at the top and outlet at 90 deg to the cylinder axis.

This link leads to a 4 page pdf which shows that in detail.

**LINK**

Edited By V8Eng on 17/12/2016 09:06:37

[Nick HughesParticipant @nickhughes97026]

I have an adaptor **LINK**

so that I can use the same regulator, either side or bottom entry, on either type of cylinder valve.

Personaly I have a Side Entry Regulator, as most if not all of the Rent Free cylinders and the smaller X or Y size BOC, have side rather than vertical outlet valves.

Nick.

Edited By Nick Hughes on 17/12/2016 09:54:05

[clogsParticipant @clogs]

Hi all,

I'm very pleased with Hobby Gas, £50 deposit and the gas seems reasonable…..depot's everywhere and you can use any one to exchange bottles, my trouble is it needs to back to the UK for ra efill………oh well…….

clogs

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Posted by Muzzer on 16/12/2016 23:42:44:

Posted by Ajohnw on 16/12/2016 13:50:25:

But I take it that the gas connection on a cylinder comes out at 90 degrees so to get the flow regulator pointing upwards the bottle would have to be lying on it's side. Am I missing something

I'm not the font of knowledge but in my 30 years or so experience of BOC and Air Liquide, the outlet was always vertical (coaxial with the cylinder axis). Probably not a great surprise to find that BOC regulators have outlet and inlet at 90 degrees with gauges appropriately oriented.

Murray

Doh if that's the case I'll have to buy an adapter. I based my choice on the link for rent free bottles I posted earlier. The outlets look to be horizontal and they state same fitting as BOC etc. It looks like that supplier is the only rent free one in B'ham. Opposite side of the city to me. Some national suppliers list others but they seem to all be motor factors and I doubt if they really have stock.

How can I identify which tig torch the unit is fitted with. There seems to be several variations all w something or the other? Same with the cutting torch.

John

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[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

The torch is this one. Nice colour co ordination with the ceramics. Shows excellent taste.

**LINK**

Proving difficult to tie down the size as the collet length is 36 1/2 mm which seems to be unusual. The Parweld catalogue shows both shorter and longer ones.

The easiest answer to that may be a new torch body as the collets only seem to be available from China. Cromwell do one for £10 with a silicon rubber head.

The cutting torch seems to be the usual 40 amp one going on the sizes of the parts. I found a more expensive 30 amp plasma cutter and they reckon that will cut 8mm cleanly with 50 psi air pressure. The duty cycle of that one was 33% despite the cost.

John

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[vintagengineerParticipant @vintagengineer]

You can get TIG brazing rods and they do braze very nicely and only put heat into the local area. I have TIG weld copper using thick copper wire and welds looked good but I couldn't recommend whether they are suitable for pressure vessels!

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I'm currently more interested in fusing rather than using filler rods. I need to make up another dog cage for the Forester. I made up the one for the previous car and some one else did the tig work on it – no filler rod. They charged me for the time so thought I would try myself. I might get the same people to plastic coat it afterwards.

I have tried this before. Some parts were being made out of 1/4" aluminium plate at work. The welder left some scrap about so that I could have a play. Just stitching wasn't that difficult. Trying to run a long seam was. The metal heats up more and more so the torch speed needs to be just right otherwise it melts through the plate completely. Stitching steel for short lengths should be a lot easier – I hope.

John

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[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

As you say, the work heats up as you progress, so ideally you'd be able to reduce the current without interrupting the weld. That's why foot pedals and torch-mounted adjusters are widely used. I found aluminium was more sensitive to heat buildup, perhaps not surprisingly.

My ancient Miller Interlas TIG welder didn't have a pedal and the only ones I could find on ebay were extortionately priced so I tried a couple of approaches. Firstly I used a variable current source (a modified bench PSU) with a small torch-mounted pot to directly control the mag amps in the welder. This worked as intended but realistically you have plenty to do with your hands as it is and only one befuddled brain to control them. I thought there must be a better way. My second solution was a large wire wound rotary pot (a rheostat, I suppose) that I got from Farnell, with a large foot pedal arrangement. This worked well, mimicking the genuine article and allowing me to enable the output and vary the output current with my foot.

Sheet metal can be fused easily if you prepare and position the edges carefully so that you melt down the edge of one or both of the sheets to provide filling. You can join tubing etc without filler but it won't have the same penetration and strength. Whether it's strong enough depends what you are making.

If you use copper wire to TIG braze, you should be prepared for a fair bit of popping and lots of frustrating inclusions. Electric wire and plumbing pipe are not very pure. They contain a fair bit of oxygen and other impurities. Try butt welding a couple of pieces of copper pipe or brazing some steel and see how you get on. Conversely, if you use Sifsilcopper rods, you won't have that problem. Ask me how I know. TIG brazing is fun and surprisingly straightforward.

Murray

[Anonymous]

Posted by Muzzer on 17/12/2016 21:14:50:

Sheet metal can be fused easily if you prepare and position the edges carefully so that you melt down the edge of one or both of the sheets to provide filling.

aka autogenous welding

Andrew

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

It's left me wondering if silver solder could be used with tig. I would have thought that the biggest problem with brazing is getting a low enough current on some machines.

Just for people who might be thinking of Xmas and lusting after cutting the compressor needed surprised me. From looking around a 30amp unit like this one is likely to need one able to deliver 3.5 bar at 100 l/min – 3.5 cfm. Go for something bigger and it looks like over 4 bar may be needed at the same flow rate.

My idea of a compressor is one that can drive decent sized brads. Buying a compressor isn't an easy task. Few state delivery rates. The only mass market ones I could find were by Sheppach. While I like the look of one of their oil less types it will only deliver around 65 l/min at this pressure. It all reminds me of my car spraying days. Tried all sorts and then bought an Apollo low pressure unit. In the right hands, not mine they could produce results that were better than the manufacturers could just using a few psi and a constant flow rate. The makers still seem to be stuck in 10 bar and low flow rates. Many decent spray guns don't need that but do need the flow rate so they stick bigger and bigger tanks on them that don't really help.

This might put me off plasma cutting for good. On the other hand I might start looking at compressors.

John

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[Steve PaveyParticipant @stevepavey65865]

Re the shielding gas – have a look on the mig welding forum for information about the Volkszone BOC offer:

**LINK**

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Posted by Steve Pavey on 18/12/2016 13:34:11:

Re the shielding gas – have a look on the mig welding forum for information about the Volkszone BOC offer:

**LINK**

I'm going to phone and ask but the headline price for an X sized cylinder argon refill is £51 plus vat. I did find a price list eventually and noted that they even charge £15 for collection. Perhaps they serve up a good 3 course meal plus drinks while people are waiting. Then their is the bottle rental on top of that.

Fact – if they have the cheek to charge for collection I wont buy anything off them on principle. It must mostly be to make up the profit they loose from delivery

I'd thought that a Y size might be a better option. Refill a bit over £80 plus the collection charge and the unknown rental that I can't find anywhere on their web site. Compared with £96 for a refill and an £80 deposit on the bottle. I could go smaller on that source and take back and simply pay the difference on the bottle deposit but the gas in those is a lot more expensive – diy trap.

John

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Edited By Ajohnw on 18/12/2016 14:41:54

[Bob GitshamParticipant @bobgitsham90361]

Yes I've tried a couple and for my money I would rather buy a real product from a known brand.

They both leaked gas from the solenoid valve. were hard to set current and feed in mig mode, which is what I use most. these machines were Mig, Tig and stick, no option for plasma cutting.

I finally bought a cigweld 175i, very happy with it, easy setup, no leaking valves quality accessories. And excellent instruction book.

Happy welding.

Bob

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I've been sorting bits out for it so haven't powered it up yet. I did intend to get some sparks out of all modes today without gas or air just to see if it works. Several things prevented me.

The only let down on what is supplied is the TIG torch. It might work ok but no spares in the uk. That might not be a problem. I have no idea how long collets and the metal bits last. The cutting torch is just like many others. I've seen and used stick holders that are a lot worse. It will hold them firmly.

In terms of how it's built it doesn't look to be cheap and nasty. Some oddities. It looks like the valve has a 1/8 bsp fitting. This makes it a bit of a problem to use anything other than the hose tail they have fitted – it's serrated just like other types of tail are so can be used really. The regulator is 1/4 bsp so no problem using more sensible fittings on that. All they supply is 1/4 bsp hose tails. That from what I can see is the only cheap and nasty aspect. The general construction and boards inside etc looks to be pretty good.

If it works and the valve leaks I don't really see that as a problem – just fit one that does. If the made up lead leaks it will probably benefit from ptf tape.

A standard tig torch as mentioned wont cost much and if I want an ergonomic handle on it complete with a button to push I am sure I could make one for it.

Leaks if there are any wont take long to fix. All I am really concerned about is the important aspect – the sparks and reliability. Actually the pipe inside that take the gasses from front to back looks just like it should do if some one is manufacturing a lot of units.

I have let the seller know that I haven't tried it yet and why. Also asked about torch spares. He seems to have missed the fact that it doesn't come with any tungsten rods but apart from that it does come with what is needed other than the add on for say cutting which needs a fairly capable compressor.

John

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[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Posted by Ajohnw on 18/12/2016 14:33:34:

Posted by Steve Pavey on 18/12/2016 13:34:11:

Re the shielding gas – have a look on the mig welding forum for information about the Volkszone BOC offer:

**LINK**

I'm going to phone and ask but the headline price for an X sized cylinder argon refill is £51 plus vat. I did find a price list eventually and noted that they even charge £15 for collection. Perhaps they serve up a good 3 course meal plus drinks while people are waiting. Then their is the bottle rental on top of that.

Fact – if they have the cheek to charge for collection I wont buy anything off them on principle. It must mostly be to make up the profit they loose from delivery

I'd thought that a Y size might be a better option. Refill a bit over £80 plus the collection charge and the unknown rental that I can't find anywhere on their web site. Compared with £96 for a refill and an £80 deposit on the bottle. I could go smaller on that source and take back and simply pay the difference on the bottle deposit but the gas in those is a lot more expensive – diy trap.

John

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Edited By Ajohnw on 18/12/2016 14:41:54

John – I'm not sure where you got those prices from. The Volkszone BOC offer is for the Y sized cylinders and the current price seems to be £51, which includes VAT (as I mentioned on the first page on this thread). Refill seems to be £36 and you only pay delivery if you get it….delivered. Pick it up yourself and you save that charge. There are BOC agents all over the place so won't be a long drive for you. As I said, I think this is the best deal going, even when you look at the cost of the "rent free" arrangements after a couple of years. If you think you can do better, please let us know.

Murray

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

Murray, BOC charge you the same if they deliver your cylinder, or you go out of your way to collect it. That's one of the reasons I replaced my Argoshield cylinder with one from a different supplier. As a Y cylinder lasts me about 3 years, I was in profit in less than a year. I will do the same with my argon, acetylene and oxygen cylinders when they are empty. BOC are setup to deal with commercial customers, and aren't interested in hobby use. They're hardly generous with their depots in Kent either.

Edited By Nicholas Wheeler 1 on 19/12/2016 18:59:09

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I think that is what it all boils down to – the amount you use.

Rental gas is a bit cheaper per refill so if you use a lot you will recover the cost of rental. If you use it once in a blue moon then rentfree is a better buy and the smaller bottles are not such an issue if you only use a small amount. Even if you have a large job just get a second bottle for that job and then return it and get your deposit back.

J

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Off BOC's official price list for 2016 Murray. I'm also not clear if the deal mentioned applies to cylinders with just argon in them. That's what I want. I will phone them and ask about prices. There are 2 pretty large BOC depots close to me so collection isn't a problem. If they charge for that I probably wont deal with them even if it costs me more.

In some respects my best hope but I need to visit is a local hire shop. I would be very surprised if they hadn't sorted something out and the owner has been very helpful in the past especially when I want to buy rather than rent.

I'm just about to put a plug on it. The !##???///!! microwave has bust though so may have to spend some time sorting a new one out.

John

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[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Just bought a new microwave combi. Same model as before.

I found a price list. BOC May 2016. This is for pureshield argon in an X bottle, vat to be added

Gas £51.30, Energy surcharde £0.79, Monthly Rental £7.05, Yearly £77.90, 3 yearly 214.75 and 5 yearly £336.80

For a Y bottle

Gas £67.85, Energy surcharge £0.79, Monthly Rental £8.90, Yearly £99.40, 3 yearly £274.05 and 5 yearly £429.95

I suspect that the Y bottle wins out on price but can't remember the gas volumes off hand. They state a surcharge for delivery or collection but don't give a figure on this one.

Rental from the site I linked to. One off refundable at any time for the bottle £80 plus vat. Gas also £80 plus vat. That's for 4m^3 of gas.

Didn't realise it was this late, aught to be in bed. The film finished late so no time to calc the cost differences with time. I'd guess for decent sized bottle – 4m^3 and low use rental wins.

John

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