Anybody recognise this old lathe?

[John FieldingParticipant @johnfielding34086]

I came across this picture of a rather unique lathe in a book I bought from a secondhand bookshop at the weekend.

I was intrigued by some of the special features it has and I wondered if anybody has seen it before.

Of course the book gave a full description of the lathe and who built it and for who it was made and I thought the brains trust might like to see if they could identify it and what it was intended to be used to make?

A couple of clues: It is British and it was made in the early 1820s.

Let's see what answers we get and then I will give you the full details later!

[John FieldingParticipant @johnfielding34086]

An engineering curiosity form olden days

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Mmm

Broadly in the style of Holtzapffel

But not quite a 'standard' ornamental lathe.

MichaelG.

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

From the date I would say it was before Holtzapffel, but the interesting piece sitting on the space behind the headstock has all the appearance of a rather fancy elliptical chuck so I agree it looks very much like an ornamental lathe. The separated beds are interesting too.

Brian

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

A wood lathe, for fancy woodwork?

Edited By Ady1 on 14/03/2016 10:34:12

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Brian Wood on 14/03/2016 10:15:33:

From the date I would say it was before Holtzapffel

.

Brian,

May I ask why ?

**LINK**

MichaelG.

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

Agreed, not too early for Holtzapffel – TD Walshaw shows a picture of his 1805 lathe in his book on ornamental turning but Holtz seemed to favour rope drives rather than belt. Too early for Birch I think. Fenn? I favour a use for elliptical turning.  Given the auxiliary bed, possibly elliptical spirals.  Does that handle clear the primary bed? – could just be a perspective issue.

Rod

Edited By Roderick Jenkins on 14/03/2016 11:04:13

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

My first thoughts were a lathe for ornamental work. Could even be clock faces or for some form of instrumentation work.

John

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[StovepipeParticipant @stovepipe]

Could it be for making the tools for which this firm was apparently noted ?

Dennis

[John FieldingParticipant @johnfielding34086]

Some of you are getting warmer but nobody so far has hit the nail on the head.

Interesting about Holtzapffel, I had assumed from the name it was a German company but googling it I found it was actually a British company albeit the originators were sort of German as they came from Alsace, that often disputed little area which oscillated between Germany and France.

I will disclose the answer in the next day or so if nobody gets it right. I think you will be surprised with the true story!

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Well, it looks like a substantial treadle machine. What a find, i think you're on the mark for the early 1800's, we have to remember there were alot of small companies making machines who are no longer in business. The lack of a "globalized" network meant that the demand was often met by lots of little firms spread all over the place. I'm fairly sure this would be substantial enough for metal work.

Michael W

 

Edited By Michael Walters on 14/03/2016 13:00:57

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Posted by John Fielding on 14/03/2016 12:51:11:

Some of you are getting warmer but nobody so far has hit the nail on the head.

Interesting about Holtzapffel, I had assumed from the name it was a German company but googling it I found it was actually a British company albeit the originators were sort of German as they came from Alsace, that often disputed little area which oscillated between Germany and France.

I will disclose the answer in the next day or so if nobody gets it right. I think you will be surprised with the true story!

The "continent" were sort of the cheap supplier to the UK like China is now. I believe one make cast the change wheel cover in the UK and included made in Gt Britain on it but the rest was made in Germany to keep costs down. Might be Zyto – not sure.

John

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[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

I'm racking my brains to think of something particular item that lathe was tailored to make. It certainly has some unusual features.

The 'handle' mentioned looks to be the main 'cross slide' wheel and appears that it can be fitted in two locations depending on the angle the slide is set too. Its is shown as being parallel to the main bed but can be rotated like our now common topslide. There looks to be right angle skew gears where the wheel fits on the feedscrew.

I wonder what the (laying down) large spoked wheel is for.? maybe its a spare handwheel but any lug for the handle is out of sight under the round object.

The 'perforated box' toolpost is an interesting item to.

Ian P

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

There seems to be a couple of odd ball aspects to it. Turning the handle which appears to be on the end of a lead screw. It also has a gear quadrant of sorts but from what is shown it's hard to see how the gears could always be made to mesh.

Using the hand tools if that is what they are in the rack would be interesting too

I'd guess it's for making lead screws or something like that but wonder why there is a division plate on the spindle unless it was also used for making dials.

John

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[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

The many dividing holes at the back of the headstock are clues.

Clearly has screwcutting capability, and some big changewheels.

The slide on an angle plate at the back of the stand looks like an elliptical chuck, but isn't, I am sure.

It looks too robust for an OT lathe, some form of instrument maker's machine, or making master threads/gears?

Looks like the cross slid an be inverted, it has a dovetail underneath which MIGHT mate with the angle plate with the two-stage dividing head on it.

Ahh . found the answer using google image search. Yes all that provision for differential indexing is the answer

 

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 14/03/2016 13:53:02

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Ian Phillips on 14/03/2016 13:10:51:

I wonder what the (laying down) large spoked wheel is for.? maybe its a spare handwheel but any lug for the handle is out of sight under the round object.

.

That one's a gear wheel, Ian … view the photo full-size and the teeth are clearly visible.

I suspect that the purpose of the machine will become obvious once we understand the headstock arrangement.

MichaelG.

[posting was interrupted by coffee]

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 14/03/2016 13:56:06

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Here's a clue – it's in the science museum and it is completely unique.

Neil

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I don't think the feed handle can be turned easily unless the sort of secondary bed is swung out at an angle – in that case it's making cones of some sort and I'd guess the power feed wont work hence the handle.

= Multi purpose maybe.

John

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[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

Are we making bits for a difference engine?

Rod

[Andy HoldawayParticipant @andyholdaway]

I couldn't compute what it was until I spotted the difference!

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Got frustrated by the Science Museum website

This is a decent reference though:

**LINK**

Note: It was quite a small world … see here

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 14/03/2016 15:10:40

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Interesting link Michael. I would add one thing to the second one – size is one thing and fit another. They clearly did work with very high precision fits one way or another with many things. I always remember an instructor pointing out that it's a good jobs something as simple as a D bit produced a hole as accurately as it does – not that far of what a modern reamer can do.

The comment about interchangeable parts is interesting. As I was into shooting I came across a book called guns for the tsar at the club. What that suggests is that Russia was the first country to make weapons with truly interchangeable parts. From memory they "imported" an Austrian who the rest of Europe thought was some sort of nut case. I still have the book somewhere. It was an interesting read.

Whitworth's rifle was way ahead of it's time in some respects but too expensive it seems and also used hexagonal bullets if i remember correctly.

John

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[John FieldingParticipant @johnfielding34086]

OK Full marks to Neil and Roderick Jenkins. I wondered how long it would take for the penny to drop.

It is in fact a one off lathe made by Joseph Clement for Charles Babbage between 1823 and 1824.

Joseph Clement was a highly skilled machinist and now I can see the connection between this lathe and the Holzapffel company, they were almost next door to one another in London.

Charles Babbage, with Joseph Clement doing the machining, tried to make the first British (note others had already succeeded) Difference Engine for computation and printing of mathematical tables for navigational purposes. I wasn't sure it was still in the Science Museum, but Neil has now confirmed that point. His design was a failure and he later tried to make an "Analytical Engine" before giving up on that task and eventually died whilst making his Difference Engine 2. His son carried on but only complete about a quarter of the machine. The lathe passed to his son but I wasn't certain what became of it. I seems he bequeathed it to the Science Museum in his will.

It is an incredible piece of engineering and the parts that were churned out by the hundreds all had to fit to ridiculous tolerances today we would find hard to work to. Incidentally Babbage also had other wide interests. One was the invention of pressure die-casting to make identical components for his Engines. This was in the mid 1800s.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Interesting related link

**LINK**

Even more interesting and possibly contradictory to the above

**LINK**

John

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[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Michael Gilligan,

Yes indeed, my mistake, I had dates in mind for someone else.

Brian

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