Aircraft General Discussion

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

There were three mothballed two at Calshot the other in Cowes.

Edited By Bob Brown 1 on 11/08/2015 10:26:23

[Bill PudneyParticipant @billpudney37759]

Saunders Roe Princess, the largest seaplane to fly more than once, and the largest ever all metal seaplane. G-ALUN was moored on a slipway at Cowes up to the mid 60s, then when Seaspeed were running their Southampton/Cowes hovercraft service she was moved to the old Samuel Whites shipyard at East Cowes, renamed by Saunders Roe as Falcon Yard. As I was doing my apprenticeship at Saunders Roe/BHC at the time, obviously several of us apprentices had to have a look inside didn't we?? There were sackfuls of silica gel inside the fuselage. Access into the wing was possible through a hatch, and one of the brave lads made it out to the inner engine bay. Right at the tail end of the passenger compartment, there was a hatch into the tail end, there was a narrow walkway, about a foot wide which led right aft, until a vertical ladder was reached, which enabled access right up inside the fin. The cockpit was tiny for such a big aircraft. She was a beautiful aeroplane, so sad that she was scrapped so ignominiously.

Happy days!!

cheers

Bill

[Flying FiferParticipant @flyingfifer]

Am I right in thinking that before the Princess was finally grounded (or should that be watered ? ) she did the same that the Bristol Brabazon did before it was grounded & broken up i.e. a final round the British Isles flight.

I can remember the Brabazon flight because I spotted it on that last flight heading south down the east coast.

Halifax, Stirling, Beaufort, Barracuda, Sea Hornet & many many more all gone. I am so glad that nowadays there is a thriving restoration industry both in the UK & around the world.

Alan

[Bill PudneyParticipant @billpudney37759]

I don't know about an around Britain flight, but G-ALUN certainly did a fair bit of flying. First flight was in August 52, last flown in June 54, with a total of nearly 97 hours. Sadly there was no customer as BOAC did its usual job of buying from the US.

The Princess pioneered many new systems and should be considered a major technical success. Again it's so sad that she was scrapped.

cheers

Bill

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

G-ALLN was at Farnborough – in 1953
**LINK**

Edited By Speedy Builder5 on 12/08/2015 07:44:41

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

Cool picture

[clogsParticipant @clogs]

HI all,

speaking of RR Merlins….didn't they fit them on some of the US fighters for use in Europe…?

Clogs quite like this subject / topic……please keep it going…….

[Flying FiferParticipant @flyingfifer]

Clogs,

That`s how the P51 Mustang became such a great aircraft, when the Brits changed the Allison engine for a Merlin.

Alan

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Even though the Merlin was made under licence in America by Packard, my favorite spotter, the wife, informed me that three aircraft were flying left to right over our back garden early this evening and the middle one was black and white by the time I got outside they had gone but there was a Merlin attached to one of them.

Mid morning a single jet went east to west over the house very low but I didn't get a look.

The problem with flying boats was not the fact we bought american airliners, by the time the Princess was built there were more airfields springing up around the world and a bit like Ryan Air the flying boats were landing miles away from there supposed destinations because there was no local stretches of water to land on so they became impractical.  

Martin P

 

Edited By martin perman on 15/08/2015 20:40:08

Edited By martin perman on 15/08/2015 20:41:21

Edited By martin perman on 15/08/2015 20:41:59

[Bill PudneyParticipant @billpudney37759]

The reality is, according to my copy of "Saunders and Saro Aircraft" was that the Princess was built to a specification prepared by the Ministry of Supply, with the assumption (!!) that BOAC would be interested, which they purported to be. Then between the issue of the spec and the commencement of build BOAC seemed to hold diametrically opposed views, depending on who the subject was being discussed with. However in late 1950 BOAC did set up a "Princess Unit", to develop the procedures and infrastructure required. There was some concern at BOAC that the Princess engines were "unsuitable for commercial service", in 1952 BOAC suggested that the (then) new Bristol Orion prop turbine might be suitable, and on it goes.

The end result was that the project was cancelled, and the three airframes (one having flown, the second and third were complete but unflown) were turned into rather a lot of saucepans.

The senior management of BOAC did seem to want to buy US aircraft, rather than British ones. Even when they did "buy British" they complained that the aircraft wasn't suitable for the role. The Vickers VC10 is a classic. BOAC demanded that the aircraft be suitable for "hot and high" airfields typical in Africa. So Vickers built the VC10, sold a handful to BOAC, who then closed the hot and high routes and complained about the high operating cost when competing with 707s on the transatlantic routes.

I find it all very sad.

cheers

Bill

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Britain and the USA had a different philosophy in aircraft manufacture. The USA built the aircraft, and told the airlines that was what was needed, starting with such as the DC-2/ DC-3, and still continues today. UK builders went out and asked an airline what they would like, or the airline went to the manufacturer, an aircraft of a fairly narrow specification was produced, with little appeal to other airlines. The exception to that rule that I can think of just now would be the Vickers Viscount as far as British aircraft in NZ. Main UK problem, lack of bulk production, where UK built hundreds(sometimes much less), the USA built thousands.

Only my opinion.

Ian S C

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

The impression I got from the seaplane era was they were a great idea for getting around the British Empire, but the big money mass market was in the USA

It's still possible they could make a comeback in the future, lovely useful and practical go anywhere machines

[JAParticipant @ja]

Before the War the USA had some magnificent flying boats. The Boeing Clippers that were, or were going to be, used on trans-Atlantic crossings were made by Sikorsky. The War changed everything and one wonders why the Princess flying boats were every built. Perhaps it had something to do with the Brabazon Committee.

JA

[John OlsenParticipant @johnolsen79199]

Flying boats were great for routes with long distances and no airports, such as the Empire route before the war, and the Pacific route for the Americans. (The Empire route was from the UK to NZ via the middle east.)

The war made the difference…aircraft got bigger and with longer range, airports were built in all sorts of places that otherwise might not have got them, and so land based aircraft took over. Flying boats were still used to get to NZ until quite late in the fifties, maybe even into the early sixties. But flying boats are expensive to run…corrosion is a problem and also the hull shape is not ideal for flight so the fuel economy is not as good. Although it must be reassuring to know that given a calm enough sea you could put down on the ocean half way across.

It also didn't help that the allies agreed during the war that the Americans would do the transport aircraft so the Brits could get on with the urgently needed fighters and bombers. It might have made sense during the war, but left the Brits on the back foot afterwards.

Even so, if they had managed to avoid the fatigue problem with the Comets, they might have managed to gain a bit more market share.

John

[NJHParticipant @njh]

John

That strikes me as a very good analysis of the situation – thank you.

Norman

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I'm surprised that we don't see more ekranoplans, although I can see they are best suited to areas like the Black Sea.

Neil

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Neil

Wrong thread !! ( Aircraft General Discussion )

Norman

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

The flying boats did great service with TEAL, an Aunt of mine was a regular flyer in the 40s/50s. One thing they didn't tell the passengers, with adverse winds the aircraft could arrive at Sydney with about 20 minutes of fuel, and I think there was more than once that they had to be towed to the buoy, not enough fuel to taxi in, things improved with the Solents, then they went to DC-6.

Ian S C

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by NJH on 17/08/2015 11:28:43:

Neil

Wrong thread !! ( Aircraft General Discussion )

Norman

Quacks like a duck!

Neil

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

Ekranoplanes: ground effect monsters doing 300 mph at about 5 metres above the water!

Wouldn't want to be a fisherman anywhere in the area.

Edited By V8Eng on 18/08/2015 20:04:50

[Sam StonesParticipant @samstones42903]

While awaiting a flight out of Heathrow in mid-year 1979, I took this sequence of IMO the most beautiful aircraft ever – i.e. Concorde during a push-back.

I've mentioned it before, but I was surprised to see that the livery was British Airways on the right side, and then Singapore Airlines on the left.

The picture quality is rather low as a result of –

Typical midsummer UK weather

Photographing through the window

Age of (satin finish) postcard prints.

Rephotographing 35 year old prints

[Cornish JackParticipant @cornishjack]

Sam S

The dual livery model was British optimism failing to understand the US 'not made here' business model!! It's a characteristic which remains with us still. Just occasionally (ie Viscount, BAC 111) it can be nullified but not often.

Re Concord, it was still in service while I was at BA and the morning departures used to set off all the car alarms in the Cranebank multi-storey park. We did a couple of look-see visits and the most noticeable thing was the flight deck size by comparison with 'my' 747s and, particularly, Tristars. Concord pilot seating was akin to an MG TC for 'cosiness!! although the FE had a lengthy travelling area. I have a photograph somewhere of the final scheduled departure from HR taken from my, then, home in Addlestone.

rgds

Bill

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Hope you don't mind Sam, but I thought I'd experiment with sprinkling some fairy dust on your pushback pic:

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Just think of the computers on Concord, today the average smart phone could out do the stuff that ran the aircraft nav systems etc. Nice aeroplane, a nice dream. We used to occasionally see it when it came into Christchurch NZ.

Ian S C

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Over thirty years ago as a member of the Duxford Aviation Society we used go on coach trips to various aviation interests and one year a visit to BA's maintenance unit at Heathrow came up, we boarded the coach at Duxford for an early start as the organiser, who was a BA pilot and a part time coach driver for his father's business, had a surprise for us and we couldn't be late.

We arrived at Heathrow to find ourselves parked outside Air Canada's cargo warehouse, the organiser went in to the building and a few minutes later came out with strict orders to follow him, stick together and touch nothing, we walked through the building to find ourselves live side stood on the grass by the runway, we were told to look left to see concorde turn onto the runway and open the throttles by the time she reached us she had rotated and was about to lift off, in my loft I have a picture of that moment and one day I will find if. We spent the rest of the day looking around in and over what was in the maintenance hangers of BA.

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