Can anyone solve this problem?

Advert

Can anyone solve this problem?

Home Forums General Questions Can anyone solve this problem?

Viewing 24 posts - 1 through 24 (of 24 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #402389
    Gary Wooding
    Participant
      @garywooding25363

      The diagrams show a V-groove in a solid block. The angle of the groove is V.

      There is a right circular cone, included angle C, resting in the groove. The point of the cone is at the bottom of the groove, and the cone just lies there touching both sides of the groove. The axis of the cone now lies at some angle X relative to the bottom of the groove.

      The problem is simple: what is angle X?

      cone in groove.jpgcone in groove2.jpg

      Advert
      #26512
      Gary Wooding
      Participant
        @garywooding25363

        A maths problem I can’t solve

        #402392
        Gary Wooding
        Participant
          @garywooding25363

          Hmm, I've somehow managed add this posting twice. Could a moderator remove one of them please?

          #402393
          Trevorh
          Participant
            @trevorh

            Isn't it just a right angle triangle – the right angle being the base of the V block, the hypotenuse being the centre line X extended to the edge of the V block gives you the Right angle

            called a scalene right angled triangle with no equal sides

            so the inclusive angle will be 35 degree at the point and 55 degrees at the vertical end

             

            regards Trevor

            Edited By Trevorh on 27/03/2019 11:16:52

            #402397
            JasonB
            Moderator
              @jasonb

              Trevor how do you get those figures when none of the angles are known? or did you just measure off the drawing.

              I would have thought Gary was after a formula so that if V and C change you can work out X

              #402398
              Gary Wooding
              Participant
                @garywooding25363

                Jason is right, I'm looking for a formula that calculates X for various values of C and V.

                #402402
                Paul Lousick
                Participant
                  @paullousick59116

                  Easy enough to work out X in a 3D model but need value of C & V

                  #402406
                  JasonB
                  Moderator
                    @jasonb

                    For those that don't have cad and want to see if they can come up with a formula then these are some random CAD values.

                    V = 80deg

                    C = 40deg included angle

                    X = 32.15deg

                    #402410
                    Anonymous

                      I don't have time at the moment to do the analysis. But by inspection we can say that the following inequality is a necessary condition:

                      C ≤ V

                      In the limit when C = V then X = 90°.

                      Andrew

                      #402411
                      Frances IoM
                      Participant
                        @francesiom58905

                        I’m sure I’ve seen this solved – look up analysis of conic sections – was in all advanced geometry books many years ago (eg late Victorian text books) – had a quick look at my bookshelves but can’t find the book I was thinking of

                        #402414
                        JasonB
                        Moderator
                          @jasonb

                          This looks like it may do, going to try it with those figures

                           

                          Edited By JasonB on 27/03/2019 14:03:57

                          #402416
                          JasonB
                          Moderator
                            @jasonb

                            yes that works

                            Sin X = Sin M x Cosec N

                            Where M is half the value of C and N is half the Value of V from the original question.

                            So taking those CAD figures I posted earlier

                            Sin X = Sin 20 x Cosec 40

                            Sin X = 0.342 x 1.558

                            Sin X = 0.533

                            X = 32.21 which allowing for me rounding to 3 decimal places is right.

                             

                            I did have to go and look up what Cosec was as I only went as far as O level mathswink

                            Edited By JasonB on 27/03/2019 14:42:53

                            #402417
                            Gary Wooding
                            Participant
                              @garywooding25363
                              Posted by JasonB on 27/03/2019 14:02:21:

                              This looks like it may do, going to try it with those figures

                              Edited By JasonB on 27/03/2019 14:03:57

                              Thanks Jason, I can verify that formula does work.

                              How did you do it in CAD? I could only do it by trial and error.

                              #402418
                              John Haine
                              Participant
                                @johnhaine32865

                                Or sin(x) = sin(M/2)/sin(V/2) since csc(x) = 1/sin(x)

                                Now to prove it!

                                I'm never quite sure why sec and cosec were ever invented since they are just reciprocals of cos and sin respectively.

                                #402419
                                JasonB
                                Moderator
                                  @jasonb

                                  I drew out the vee block and cone to those angles which is easy enough. I then assembled the two using a tangental mate to first mate the slope of the cone to one side of the vee and then a second similar mate to get it to sit against that. Then just a case of measuring the angle between base and the central axis is the cone. I've made the block semi transparent so you can see things better

                                   

                                  cone angle.jpg

                                  Edited By JasonB on 27/03/2019 14:54:52

                                  #402424
                                  SillyOldDuffer
                                  Moderator
                                    @sillyoldduffer

                                    Posted by John Haine on 27/03/2019 14:53:47:

                                    I'm never quite sure why sec and cosec were ever invented since they are just reciprocals of cos and sin respectively.

                                    Me neither, except reading an old book about navigation suggests an answer: it does sums using haversines, covercosines and other weirdness. The reason seems to be simplification and error reduction of calculations at a time when they were done manually in mid-Atlantic by sea-sick navigators in rough weather. It's quicker and safer to look up cosec x in a table than it is to crunch 1 / sin x, or to look up sin x and then it's reciprocal in two tables. The formula involved are simplified too, for example the Haversine formula is hot at calculating great circle distances. Likely the functions also helped on land, perhaps laying out curves on railway lines.

                                    Other examples of 'labour saving' trig functions include Versine, Coversine, Vercosine, Secant, Cosecant, Exsecant, Excosecant, Cotangent and probably others. Once you have a computer, calculator or even a slide rule, the need for them largely disappears, I guess. I've never come across them in real life!

                                    Dave

                                    #402426
                                    Gary Wooding
                                    Participant
                                      @garywooding25363

                                      Thanks Jason,

                                      I tried, and failed to do it in Fusion, which is the reason I wanted a formula. Fusion doesn't use mates – it uses something called joints instead, which I couldn't make work.

                                      #402439
                                      John Reese
                                      Participant
                                        @johnreese12848
                                        Posted by John Haine on 27/03/2019 14:53:47:

                                        I'm never quite sure why sec and cosec were ever invented since they are just reciprocals of cos and sin respectively.

                                        In the days of solving math using pencil & paper it was simpler to multiply by the inverse function than to divide by the function. Some of the early mechanical calculators were not capable of division hence the need for the inverse functions.

                                        #402450
                                        Neil Wyatt
                                        Moderator
                                          @neilwyatt
                                          Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 27/03/2019 16:02:24:

                                          Other examples of 'labour saving' trig functions include Versine, Coversine, Vercosine, Secant, Cosecant, Exsecant, Excosecant, Cotangent and probably others. Once you have a computer, calculator or even a slide rule, the need for them largely disappears, I guess. I've never come across them in real life!

                                          Dave

                                          Most of those sound like decongestants.

                                          My brain needs one after reading this thread…

                                          Neil

                                          #402466
                                          Chris Trice
                                          Participant
                                            @christrice43267

                                            The thing that threw me was that the round disk of the wide part of the cone, when angled forward starts making contact with the V block nearer and nearer to the east and west positions. Looking from the front, the disk starts to become elliptical the more it leans.

                                            #402494
                                            Brian Wood
                                            Participant
                                              @brianwood45127

                                              Jason,

                                              May I ask which book it was you found that explanation in please. My various reference books, including the full set of three Chapman's on Workshop Technology doesn't have it

                                              Regards

                                              Brian

                                              #402528
                                              JasonB
                                              Moderator
                                                @jasonb

                                                Brian, just click on the link I posted and you can scroll upto the front cover and read the title etc.

                                                #402555
                                                Brian Wood
                                                Participant
                                                  @brianwood45127

                                                  Jason,

                                                  Thank you, lots of useful stuff in that

                                                  Brian

                                                  #402594
                                                  Brian Wood
                                                  Participant
                                                    @brianwood45127

                                                    For the benefit of others, the book is titled " Mathematics at Work" . This reference was taken from the 4th Edition

                                                    The author is Holbrook L Horton and the book is published by the Industrial Press in New York

                                                    Brian

                                                  Viewing 24 posts - 1 through 24 (of 24 total)
                                                  • Please log in to reply to this topic. Registering is free and easy using the links on the menu at the top of this page.

                                                  Advert

                                                  Latest Replies

                                                  Home Forums General Questions Topics

                                                  Viewing 25 topics - 1 through 25 (of 25 total)
                                                  Viewing 25 topics - 1 through 25 (of 25 total)

                                                  View full reply list.

                                                  Advert

                                                  Newsletter Sign-up