Bergen Dies and Taps

This topic has 21 replies, 16 voices, and was last updated 23 February 2018 at 11:42 by Mike Poole.

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22 February 2018 at 09:46 #25827
BOB BLACKSHAW 1
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@bobblackshaw1
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22 February 2018 at 09:46 #342714
BOB BLACKSHAW 1
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@bobblackshaw1
A lot of my taps and dies need replacing. are Bergen taps and die sets any good for general light use.
22 February 2018 at 11:40 #342725
David Standing 1
Participant
@davidstanding1
They appear to be the same as US PRO ones. Lots of them aren't HSS, but carbon (presumably) steel.

Appear to be run of the mill Chinese stuff, they wouldn't be my first choice, but it depends what your budget is.
22 February 2018 at 12:20 #342729
Anonymous
Hmmm, solid dies; look remarkably like a set of metric taps and dies I bought decades ago. Turned out to be totally useless. Personally I wouldn't give the Bergen sets house room at any price.

Andrew
22 February 2018 at 12:30 #342731
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Posted by BOB BLACKSHAW on 22/02/2018 09:46:39:

are Bergen taps and die sets any good

.

Bergen is not to be confused with Bergeon … despite the accidental similarity of name.

MichaelG.
22 February 2018 at 13:11 #342735
Andrew Tinsley
Participant
@andrewtinsley63637
I have no knowledge of Bergen taps. However I do have a set of unbranded Chinese taps and dies (HSS). They are remarkably good all things considered. So you cannot always tell what is good and what isn't.

Another thing to mention is that the Tracy tools carbon steel taps and dies, are in my experience, very good and long lasting. If I break a tap it is always an HSS. I don't think I have ever managed to break a Tracey Tool carbon steel tap!

Andrew.
22 February 2018 at 14:02 #342739
David Jenkins 2
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@davidjenkins2
+1 for Tracey Tools first class service.
22 February 2018 at 14:48 #342743
martin perman 1
Participant
@martinperman1
In my experience solid dies are only good for thread repair and no good for actually cutting threads.

Martin P
22 February 2018 at 14:49 #342744
martin perman 1
Participant
@martinperman1
In my experience solid dies are only good for thread repair and no good for actually cutting threads.

I will say that Bergen general tools, spanners etc are good.

Martin P
22 February 2018 at 14:50 #342745
richardandtracy
Participant
@richardandtracy
For low usage in of Bergen Taps in MS/aluminium/brass they are OK. Reasonable quality, price that's affordable. Carbon steel, works well for the less used sizes. I have M9x1.0, M10x1.0, M12 x 2 twin start from them. For these odd sizes I'd never have been able to afford them at the price of good HSS taps, and they still exist in adequate condition after my need for those sizes has passed.

I would not advocate them for regular/semi-industrial use.

Regards,

Richard.

Edited By richardandtracy on 22/02/2018 14:50:52
22 February 2018 at 15:17 #342751
Brian H
Participant
@brianh50089
I find the ones from The Tap & Die Company are excellent quality at a reasonable price.

Brian
22 February 2018 at 16:51 #342763
jimmy b
Participant
@jimmyb
I think that you'd be better off picking up used good quality stuff where you can.

A long time ago I paid a fair amount of money for a "quality" tap and die set from Sealey. Total rubbish, I knackered up a brake caliper with one of the taps. I then went through them checking all the threads, chucked them all in the bin. Now I will only have good quality taps and dies. An expensive lesson learned…

Jim
22 February 2018 at 17:29 #342769
Neil Wyatt
Moderator
@neilwyatt
It's a myth that unsplit dies are automatically inferior. In the 'good old days' you needed to be able to adjust dies because, frankly, they usually weren't very accurate.

If you are making threads on a production line you don't want to tiddle about setting split dies, you buy decent quality unsplit ones, you buy unsplit dies to the tolerance you need.

Both Dormer and Guhring seem to have no problem with making and supplying unsplit dies (they also make die nuts for truing up bad threads, but these are labelled as such).

My no-name set of HSS metric dies is marked g6 tolerance; g6 is a 'precision fit allowing sliding movement with almost no gap' and frankly I have have never had a duff thread from them.

The only reason to buy split dies these days is if you want to be able to adjust the tolerance of your threads.

Neil
22 February 2018 at 18:21 #342782
MW
Participant
@mw27036
Posted by Neil Wyatt on 22/02/2018 17:29:27:

The only reason to buy split dies these days is if you want to be able to adjust the tolerance of your threads.

Neil

No, because the unsplit ones are impossible to get started, even the worst quality split dies will start on a die wrench.

I don't doubt that this is what they do with machines under power, but if you're just a bloke and a bench vice operation then you're waaaay better off with a split die.

Michael W

Edited By Michael-w on 22/02/2018 18:23:21
22 February 2018 at 18:28 #342783
Neil Wyatt
Moderator
@neilwyatt
Posted by Michael-w on 22/02/2018 18:21:52:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 22/02/2018 17:29:27:

The only reason to buy split dies these days is if you want to be able to adjust the tolerance of your threads.

Neil

No, because the unsplit ones are impossible to get started, even the worst quality split dies will start on a die wrench.

I don't doubt that this is what they do with machines under power, but if you're just a bloke and a bench vice operation then you're waaaay better off with a split die.

Michael W

Edited By Michael-w on 22/02/2018 18:23:21

I've never found this, but I do always bevel the end of the work before starting a die.
22 February 2018 at 18:33 #342784
jimmy b
Participant
@jimmyb
If you buy dies from a decent manufacturer they will ask if you want them splitting. I split unsplit ones with a dremel and a thin cutting disc.

The dies I used to buy were £25-£40 each (M6, spiral entry)

Jim
22 February 2018 at 18:45 #342786
MW
Participant
@mw27036
Posted by Neil Wyatt on 22/02/2018 18:28:45:

I've never found this, but I do always bevel the end of the work before starting a die.

Just to put my comment into perspective,

This was just using faithful/Clarke set of unsplit dies, they've become practically junk after I learned the hard way and started using tracys for split dies.

Maybe it was troublesome at particular sizes, but you could never get them to go anywhere, it would just chew at the end of the bar. I think I tried tapering it on the lathe once and it still wouldn't go far.

I'm thinking that possibly respected suppliers like dormer use dies with a very nicely cut thread lead and taper on the die cutting geometry to ease the cut in.

But I found an almost instant aversion to unsplit dies after that, maybe unfairly because I haven't tried the decent ones.

P.S you're most welcome to take some off me if you like them, they're just using up drawer space for me.

Michael W

Edited By Michael-w on 22/02/2018 18:48:42
22 February 2018 at 20:29 #342807
Neil Wyatt
Moderator
@neilwyatt
I have a set of unsplit carbon steel Clarke ones that I would definitely class as die nuts.

The decent unsplit ones I have are completely different.

All my imperial dies are split.

Neil
22 February 2018 at 23:09 #342831
Michael Briggs
Participant
@michaelbriggs82422
I have a number of unsplit Ruko metric dies that form a high quality thread on stainless steel. A split die partly relies on pointed grub screws for rigidity. For starting a thread, taps have a taper built in.

Edited By Michael Briggs on 22/02/2018 23:18:53
23 February 2018 at 08:58 #342876
Chris Evans 6
Participant
@chrisevans6
I like split dies as I am often making new studs for worn components where the ability to leave the stud oversize comes in handy. I once made the mistake of buying US Pro taps labled as HSS they where so bad I could file them.
23 February 2018 at 11:32 #342911
SillyOldDuffer
Moderator
@sillyoldduffer
Apologies for indulging my Hobby Horse again but chaps, beware of generalisations!
- Having a bad experience with an unsplit die does not prove that all unsplit dies are rubbish
- Having a good experience with an unsplit die does not prove that all unsplit dies are OK
- Brand names do not guarantee quality. Brand names can be sold, or forged, or the owner might choose to change the quality of his product. It's quite common for high-end brands to deflate, and for low-end brands to improve. A worn-out Brand Name is worn out.
- Country of origin does not guarantee quality, good or bad.
- High cost does not guarantee quality – you may be paying for inefficiency, or for the name alone.
- In the past products changed slowly. Not so today. Other than at the high-end, manufacturing processes are well understood and largely de-skilled; that means 'stuff' can pretty much be made anywhere in the world and to any desired level of quality. Manufacture tends to move to wherever happens to be cheapest at the moment. Sometimes the market pushes quality up, other times it's pushed down. Point is, everything is changing.
This makes life a little difficult. Sometimes you buy a cheap set of taps and dies and they're OK, other times they're not.

I've no idea if the current range of Bergen kit is any good or not. I don't think anyone does unless they've used it (see RichardandTracy). Having read Richard's review I'd be happy to try them because they appear to satisfy my low-end needs. But there would be no tears if they turned out to be carp. There's always more risk buying cheap tools from a general vendor. If you must have top quality buy to a specification from one of the specialists.

Dave
23 February 2018 at 11:42 #342914
Mike Poole
Participant
@mikepoole82104
As taps are non adjustable that only leaves split dies if you wish to aim for a shake free thread. I have a pair of toolmakers clamps of the single sided sit flat on a table type made by Arrand, the fit of the nuts on the screws is superb, I doubt they were made by a split die but to achieve a fit like that I think a split die has to be the way to go.

Mike
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