Which version of the Victoria U2 milling machine is this ?

[Alan GilbieParticipant @alangilbie78933]

Hi all,

I recently bought a Victoria U2 milling machine and am keen to fully identify it.

I have uploaded some photos here:

http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/albums/member_album.asp?a=40322

I gather there are two version of the U2 – Mk1 and Mk2.

Which version is mine – and where can I get a manual for it?

Have approached Tony at lathes.co.uk about this, but no response has been forthcoming.

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

[Alan GilbieParticipant @alangilbie78933]

[Anonymous]

No idea which version of the mill the pictures show, but it has got a universal milling head, drool!

Andrew

[John McNamaraParticipant @johnmcnamara74883]

Hi Alan

There is something very satisfying about heavy Iron,
You may be a bit limited with top speed for the vertical head using small cutters. but you will never run out of power with bigger cutters judging by the paint it has had an easy life.

 

I googled          victoria U2 Milling machine

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=victoria+U2+Milling+machine&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjgmLK619HLAhVCqqYKHV75D_wQ_AUICCgC&biw=852&bih=489

Worth a browse

A good find.

Regards
John

 

Edited By John McNamara on 21/03/2016 11:35:00

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Going by the speed change capstans I'd say its a late, very late, version as thats a relatively modern way of doing things with the speed markings directly on the dial. Victoria generally stuck to the older style of levers moving through arcs with a plate referencing speed to lever position.

Style of serial number plate is late too wth faded printing and basic number stamping.

However I'd always understood that the big difference between early and late U1 / U2 machines is in the power feed drive arrangements. Early machines having an external universal jointed shaft whilst later ones have the mechancs more concealed.

Save for power feed details there won't be a vast difference.

Clive.

[Alan GilbieParticipant @alangilbie78933]

Thanks for the feedback guys.

[Alan GilbieParticipant @alangilbie78933]

Posted by John McNamara on 21/03/2016 11:32:28:

You may be a bit limited with top speed for the vertical head using small cutters.

I do not have 3ph power so will probably go down the VFD path – quite possibly with a new 3ph motor.

This will obviously give me additional speed reduction options and so I was wondering whether it would be ok to buy a 2800rpm motor. Idea being to increase the top speed with little, if any, loss of slow speed.

Do you think the bearings in the old girl could cope with doubling the top speed ?

Edited By Alan Gilbie on 22/03/2016 22:29:36

[EmgeeParticipant @emgee]

Hi Alan

Doubling the speed may IMO cause damage to the gear train and bearings with extended periods of operation, it will certainly make them sing a bit even with a copious oil supply.

Emgee

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Double speed should be OK as either a two speed motor or two speed belt set-up was on the options list. I had a U series manual through my hands some years back and think maximum speed witht eh veritical head and two speed option was of the order of 1,500 – 2,000 rpm.

Unfortunately I didn't scan the thing, just passed it on to the (now ex-) friend I bought it for.

Clive.

[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

I spent several months on Victoria U2 and V2 mills, around 1960, during my apprenticeship your machine is a lot later version, the one I worked on had two speed drive pulleys, I well remember changing the two belts over and came up a bit quick and went down even quicker when I hit my head on the overarm, which had been pushed well back to take the vertical head.The universal type vertical head had a small spindle to give clearance with smaller cutters when the spindle was set horizontal and roughly parallel longwise to the table so that it could be used for rack cutting or thread milling, I also learnt to cut spiral gears on this machine, they were good reasonable priced machines ,The V2 was a solid machine capable of milling cast iron with a 6 inch face mill,though a lot of our work was done with Clarkson deadlock cutters, The mills were used on small batch production work ,as instrument makers the heaviest work was cast iron optical benches and microscope bases . Regarding the speed of the vertical attachment for the U2 I seem to remember that the interal gearing increased the speed of the spindle. In the photos that vertical head looks awfully heavy,I currently have an Adcock and shipley 2E universal with a vertical head and I can no longer fit it by myself due its weight and my age.

[mechman48Participant @mechman48]

Some piece of kit you've got there Alan; soon get rid of some metal with that… nice find.

George.

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Hi Alan,

I have an older Mk1 Victoria HO (e.g. non-universal table) so cannot really help with the age of your U2. Yours is much more recent/modern.

I do have a vertical head though and it is very heavy to lift on and off – but I made a wooden cradle that enables me to use the mills table (and knee) to get the head into position for fitting and/or removal. It has a MT3 blank taper fitted to position everything. Once on the mills table I have various slings & lifting devices I can use – but generally I just leave it fitted these days.

With regards the speed of the vertical head, mine is geared but even so is not ideal for small tooling. I've seen several designs in ME over the years for 'spindle speeders' that act as further gearing for the main spindle on mills but I've never got around to building one. I've also thought of attaching an auxiliary high speed spindle (with separate motor) but in the end have generally managed with the ordinary head. I have smaller machines so it's not such an issue for me. The Victoria is a very solid piece of kit though and will do work that my other mills would not be very happy with. The large table size is very useful too.

I will admit to just a tinge of jealousy looking at your new mill (I'd like the universal table) but whether I'd actually use it fully might be another thing.- and my old lady works well enough most of the time for my needs.

Enjoy your new machine – old (big) iron can make life a lot easier some times…

Regards,

IanT

[Alan GilbieParticipant @alangilbie78933]

Thought some readers might be interested to hear a bit more about my milling machine project.
Bought a 3ton shop hoist to move it out of the low-roofed shed where it was housed. The high lift rating was needed to get required lift with jib extended. I sat the machine on the legs of the hoist and was able to roll it along a driveway and out to the street where it could be picked up with a crane truck. This was then able to place the machine back on the engine hoist in my driveway.
From there I just rolled it into my workshop. Sounds easy, but it weighs 1.7 tons (according to crane operator) so quite a bit of effort was required to move and steer it.
Also it was quickly apparent that the hoist is too awkward for use with lifting heavy parts of the milling machine. So I started thinking about making a mobile gantry. Found one that was close to what I wanted on Gumtree and modified it to suit. The A frames, beam and braces are all 75mm square tube with 6mm wall thickness. Very heavy duty and weighed 120 kg. However the beam was only 1.5m long so the gantry wasn't quite wide enough to comfortably straddle the mill.
I solved this by cutting the original beam and mounting a 2m length of 150UB on top. So now it is wide enough and according to my calcs good for 2 tons with a hefty safety margin. It can also now be disassembled to three pieces whereas it was a one piece welded structure when I bought it and difficult to transport. Also I have made it so that it can be bolted together with a span of 2m, 2.3m or 2.6m. So a lot more flexible.
Anyway, as you can see in the pic it is well up to the task of lifting and supporting the mill.
Project focus now switches to getting the machine powered up. As it stands, it has a 4hp 3ph motor but I don't currently have 3ph available.

Started discussions with some local electricians re power feed options and can summarise early indications as follows:
Retain existing motor –
Upgrade my house and shed to 3ph – around $3,000 – $4,000 (inc connect machine).
Purchase a Rotary Phase Changer – probably slightly cheaper than 3ph connection
Buy a 230V-415V step-up transformer and VFD to supply "synthetic" 415V 3ph to the motor – around $1,000 + electrical fit and connection $200

Replace motor –
3ph: star/delta wired for 240V 3ph motor $300 + $700 for VFD + electrical fit & connection $200 + motor pulley $?
1ph: 4hp motor $400 + electrical fit and connection $200 + motor pulley $? (NB assumes reuse of 3ph contactors for 1ph)

Waiting for actual quotes to come in.
I'd like to retain the original motor and I'm very tempted to upgrade my power supply to 3ph. Not sure how to sell this to the boss though… ATM it is looking like a new single phase motor will be my best option.

Had a go at removing the Clarkson chuck from the VH so that I could confirm whether the spindle taper is 3MT.
After giving the end of the draw bar half a dozen righteous whacks with a copper hammer, I noticed that the a slight burr was forming.
As the draw bar was previously unbruised, I decided I must be missing something.
On closer inspection, I noticed that the draw bar passes through a cap nut screwed onto an external thread on the spindle.
After this "aha" moment, I discovered that the draw bar has a collar at mid-length that is designed to both pull-up an inserted male taper and eject it by pushing against the cap nut.
Using the eject feature then made short work of extracting the collet chuck.
Felt like an idiot and hope that my unnecessary whacks with the hammer didn't do any damage, but I did at least confirm that the spindle bore is 3MT. This is good news as I have a full ER32 collet set that I bought for my Hercus (Southbend clone) lathe.

[IanTParticipant @iant]

I don't think my Victoria is quite that heavy Alan but she's no lightweight either.

I hired a twin axle trailer to go collect her and a two ton engine hoist to lift her on and off. Inside the shop the hoist won't fit – so I use 2" steel rollers and a wrecking bar to move her around (she's crept right around the workshop once or twice this way over time) – I just take it easy and stop if I'm getting tired. Straight line movement is OK using rollers, turning 'corners' needs a bit more room – and to & fro'in.

I have a large 'A' frame to lift my "smaller" kit (which dissembles for easy storage) but it's not as massive as your lifting kit (and would not lift the Victoria safely).

So 'weight' is a problem with these larger machines but (for others considering one) you (hopefully) don't have to move them around that often and in-between these times – the advantages of a large/heavy machine are there to use and enjoy

Alan, I hope your spindle is OK but these are very robust machines, so I doubt you've done too much real damage from your description. Anyway – once again – a very nice machine and one I'm sure you will enjoy using.

Regards,

IanT

[Alan GilbieParticipant @alangilbie78933]

Posted by IanT on 23/03/2016 13:47:58:

I do have a vertical head though and it is very heavy to lift on and off – but I made a wooden cradle that enables me to use the mills table (and knee) to get the head into position for fitting and/or removal.

I like this idea – would give very good control over the process of lining up the VH up when refitting.

This is the first milling machine I've owned and the vertical knee movement gives utility I have yet to fully appreciate.

[Alan GilbieParticipant @alangilbie78933]

I've been doing some digging into the history of the U2.
This advert for a U2 apparently dates from 1945:

Position and arrangement of the drive shaft seen in the U2 advert matches my machine.
I have come to think the model in the 1945 advert with lever selectors for speed and feed is the Mk1. Therefore it seems reasonable to assume the model with rotary capstans for speed and feed is the MkII.
I have seen suggestions that later model machines were branded as Elliott following a takeover of Victoria by Elliott. However, I think the Elliott/Victoria branding of the machines was simply a marketing thing and not related to an ownership change. The Victoria brand was owned by the B. Elliot Group at least as early as 1961 and probably much earlier.
".. in the summer of 1905, Hugo Frye, a German engineer vacationing in England, met and fell in love with a young lady named Beatrice Elliott. Hugo married Beatrice, moved to London and started an import business. Using his continental relations, he brought to the UK precision machine tools and accessories made in Germany, Austria and Switzerland.
During World War I, to avoid restrictions imposed on a business owned by an “alien enemy national” (Hugo was still a German citizen), he transferred the ownership of the company to his wife, Beatrice – and changed the company name to the later famous, B. Elliott Group (BEG). After W.W.I. ended, Hugo, now an English citizen, expanded his business and started to manufacture machine tools under brand names which later became famous – Progress drills, Victoria milling machine, and many others. "
FWIW.

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

An unusual feature of the basically similar Victoria V2 I helped refurb some years back was the Y axis feed which engaged the feedscrew via a large bronze helical rack instead of the usual nut. No idea why things were done in this way. Possibly the idea was to reduce the usual wear induced backlash as most of the feedscrew would be engaged most of the time avoiding the usual screw wear around the most used positions. Whatever the theory the Y axis rack on this example was completely lunched. Fortunately the screw was still pretty good so I guess there may have been something in the mostly engaged all the time theory. The X axis feedscrew and nut were pretty decent.

The fix involved cutting a new rack on a piece of phosphor bronze bar, around13" long by 2 3/4 " wide by 1 1/2" thick or thereabouts if memory serves me right. Not cheap. The rack was cut on an old 15" Harrison using a suitably shaped tool in a between centres boring bar. A long angle bracket fixed to the crosslide held the phospor bronze so cuts could be put on using the cross-slide in the normal way. Cutting the rack went just fine but on removal from the bracket it proceeded to bend in about 30 differnt directions at once due to release of stresses in the parent bar. Evidently milling around 1/8" off all sides to make it fit the slot provided for it in the knee wasn't enough to release all the stresses. As I remember it the bar barely moved when being taken down to size. Straightening was "interesting"! Worth the effort though as the final result had virtually no backlash and was very accurate. Shimming under the helical rack to get full thread engagement without binding was time consuming.

Clive.

[Alan GilbieParticipant @alangilbie78933]

There is a control on the RH side of the column of my U2 which I have not fully worked out.

It rotates back and forwards through 3 positions but it also has 2 axial positions – pushed in and pulled out.
There is a plate below the the control with a graphic that suggests it is related to the horizontal spindle.

There is no power to the machine yet and I did not notice any effects of changing between the 6 possible positions while rotating the drive belts by hand.
What I did notice is that this control has some sort of mechanical link to a large robust panel fixed to the other side of the column.

This panel is the mounting point for the motor contactors, but I have not been able to work out how to remove it.
After removing 6 cap screws from the panel it can be drawn away from the machine by 30mm on a locating dowel pin, but something that I cannot see prevents further removal. Presumably this is related to the control whose function I am guessing at.
In the absence of other ideas, I am wondering if my "unknown" control might be linked to a reversing switch and possibly two speed switchgear for the motor.
Can anyone confirm the function of this control ? – and advise how to remove the panel on the left hand side ?

[Alan GilbieParticipant @alangilbie78933]

Have finally managed to get hold of a manual for my machine.

It is a Mk2 and there are many differences from the previous version, but perhaps most significant are:

. main motor is an upgraded two speed unit rated at 4/6hp

. motor control lever with 2 axial positions for high/low speed and 3 rotary positions for Fwd/Stop/Rev.

. 6 geared speeds/feeds and 2 speed motor give 12 speeds/feeds with no belt changes

. thermal overload protection circuits with reset buttons for main motor and coolant pump

. 2 speed coolant pump

. revised control levers for table movement

The upgraded 2 speed motor, gives more incentive to arrange a 3ph supply rather than convert to 1ph.

Still don't know when it was made, but my guess is somewhere in the 1960's.

Edited By Alan Gilbie on 31/03/2016 15:23:44

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Looks as if B. Elliott Group Ltd / Elliott Machine Tools (London) ceased trading in 2003. Was that the end of them or did their order book simply move abroad I wonder?

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Gate Machinery are the successors to Elliott and calim still to support the old brands of machine. See **LINK** about halfway down the page. I imagine actual parts avalaiblity will be limited to consumables, whats in stock and possibly some of the simpler manufactured components. I doubt if any serious parts would be re-made. I do know of return springs for pillar drills being got fairly recently at not totally silly prices, around £40 ish.

Clive

[Alan GilbieParticipant @alangilbie78933]

Been a bit distracted with family issues for last 6 months, but getting back into hobby stuff now.

Regarding powering the machine, I upgraded my P/S to 3 phase and had the machine connected by the sparky.

The 6HP two speed motor runs sweetly and the bearings and gears in the spindle drive train seem to be fine – smooth and quiet.

All feeds work and the knee and table move smoothly with very little backlash.

The feed drive is smooth and quiet with feed selector lever in upwards position (feed shaft turns anti-clockwise when spindle turns clockwise), but noisy when in the lower position.

This is not affected by the direction of rotation of the feed shaft ie reversing the motor makes no difference.

It is a bit hard to tell where the noise is coming from but I think it is either the feed gearbox or the chain drive in the column.

I would be interested in any comments readers can offer on this.

One thought that I had was that the chain has stretched and become loose – is there a chain tensioner ?

Cheers,

Alan

PS a helpful chap at Gate Machinery checked the serial number of my machine and according to their records it is an Elliott M2 model manufactured in 1950.

Edited By Alan Gilbie on 23/11/2016 00:22:40

[Chris Evans 6Participant @chrisevans6]

Thanks for the update, I followed this thread when you first posted. I used one of these machines during my apprenticeship but that was over 50 years ago and I remember nothing of the controls. I have used so many machines since the mind gets hazy.

[Author]

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