Which steam oil

[SomersetSimplexParticipant @somersetsimplex]

[SomersetSimplexParticipant @somersetsimplex]

ive just bought my first loco, a Simplex, and have a couple of questions: compound steam oil – 460, 680 or 1000? I've been suggested 1000, but I think it should be 460? Next general lubrication, what is best? I assume not car engine oil? Finally water – our mains water is hard, so is rain water better ( we've plenty of that!) although this is my first loco, I've been building a Simplex for more years than I like to admit, but decided it was time to get a loco I can run.

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

hi somerset simplex,

most of us use what our clubs buy in bulk.

i have tried all sorts of different grades over the last 30 plus years.

in fullsize, you will find on preserved railways a number of different grades, depending on whether the loco is saturated, superheated, and superheated for mainline use.

there are also higher grade oils that are more refined – these tend to be lighter and more expensive.

so there are different grades for different types of locos, and then the same grades in a more refined state.

personally, in miniature locos i dont think it matters much mainly because we tend to supply more oil to the cylinders than would be acceptable in fullsize. however if you have radiant superheaters i would change my advice!

i have a large can of Shell Valvata that will see me out. it is the extra refined type of steam oil.

Morris's of Shewsbury can give you all the advice you require and are most helpful.

for non cylinder parts you need proper lubricating oil not car engine oil. there is a huge range of opinion on this. again clubs buy in bulk proper loco lubricating oil. ignore the idiots who suggest chain oil, please!

perhaps best to join a local club?!

cheers,

julian

[SomersetSimplexParticipant @somersetsimplex]

Thanks. I'm a member at East Somerset so will ask around, I was just interested to see what others use. I've seen Morris's website and may order from them. I knew coal is usually available from clubs but hadn't realised steam oil might be. Gavin

[stan pearson 1Participant @stanpearson1]

Hi Somersetsimplex

I use EP90 gear oil for my locos running gear and have had no problems, like Julian I also use Shell Valvata

Stan

[MichaelRParticipant @michaelr]

Hi SomersetSimplex.

If using gear oil for lubricating your running gear use the type that has no EP additives, as I believe the EP types are not compatible with bronze bearings.

Mike.

[John FieldingParticipant @johnfielding34086]

Hi MichaelR,

I think you are misinformed about EP additives. This type of oil was recommended by David Brown for their worm gearboxes which use bronze wheels. The EP additives are just of method of increasing the shear strength of the lubricant by a tighter molecular bonding between the oil molecules. As far as general lubricating oils go for locos etc, I find nothing at all wrong with the normal SAE motor oils. As they contain anti-corrosion additives this can only be a benefit IMHO.

It may interest readers to know that "steam oil" is just another variety of gear oils, check the various oil manufacturers data sheets for more information.

[MichaelRParticipant @michaelr]

Hi John.

I stand to be corrected thanks for the Info.

Mike.

[stan pearson 1Participant @stanpearson1]

Hi John

That is correct about EP oils I worked on buses and trucks and they used EP90 in there diffs also in manual gearboxes, EP80 was also used in most car diffs and gearboxes the EP standing for extreme Pressure

Stan

[John FieldingParticipant @johnfielding34086]

All oils to some extent could be classed as EP. Hydraulic systems use very high pressures and use a type of mineral or synthetic oil. In hydraulic systems pressures of 10,000 psi are commonly used but in gear oils the EP specifically relates to how well the oil can withstand shearing action between the gear teeth. The meshing of the gears causes a very high localised pressure gradient and if the oil cannot survive this is breaks down and then metal to metal contact occurs which causes rapid wear of the gear teeth. Incidentally, syncromesh rings on gearboxes and other parts are made from bronze as well and EP80 upwards is the preferred oil to use.

Steam oil today is simply a type of hydraulic oil that can withstand high temperatures. If you see the oils needed in wind turbine gearboxes you will appreciate these are on the limit of modern oils capability and a common fault is for the oil to overheat and catch fire!

[David JuppParticipant @davidjupp51506]

I recall from a Tribology module in my Materials Science degree course that EP additives are arguable misleadingly named, as it is the locally very high temperatures resulting from high pressure contact that leads to the deposit of low shear strength films which then act a solid lubricant even if the oil is squeezed out.

The concern about corrosion is if combustion products combine with the EP additives – so don't use EP oils in IC engines.

Edited By David Jupp on 16/02/2016 18:30:56

[GWRdriverParticipant @gwrdriver]

>>(I) have a couple of questions: compound steam oil – 460, 680 or 1000? I've been suggested 1000, but I think it should be 460?<<

I think you are correct.  I've been using 460 (or thereabouts) steam cylinder oil for 40+ years on all scales with excellent results.  The advice to use 1000 is overkill IMHO and is a symptom of the "More/bigger is better" disease which seems to be creeping in everywhere.

There is propaganda being spread that all of today's so-called "steam oil" is only a gear oil in disguise, and some of those oils may very well serve well, but an engineer from a well-known petroleum brand assures me that a proper steam oil is still being made.  I contacted that company some years ago to suss out a rumor that steam oil was soon to be discontinued.  His answer, in brief, was no, the world was still full of steam powered industrial machinery all of which needed good old steam oil.

Edited By GWRdriver on 18/02/2016 00:12:59

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

hi GWRdriver,

you are absolutely correct. unless you have a fullsize mainline loco working at mainline speeds and superheater!

i can assure you that properly graded steam oils are still made in the UK. not sure what the position is in the USA, but i am quite sure the same applies.

cheers,

julian

[John FieldingParticipant @johnfielding34086]

As an indication on the steam oil saga, here is a snip from a manufacturers data sheet of their steam oils, in this case Mobil Oils, but all manufacturers give similar information.

 

Mobil Cylinder oils are high performance high viscosity oils designed for use in enclosed worm gears operating at moderate to high speeds and temperatures, and where heavy loads, slow speeds or high temperatures demand high viscosity oils. They are also intended for use in steam engine cylinder applications. They are formulated from high quality base stocks that are resistant to oxidation and thermal degradation, and the build-up of harmful deposits caused by the high operating temperatures of steam cylinders. They protect against rust and corrosion and provide good film strength and excellent lubricity and they are resistant to water washout.

Mobil 600W™ Cylinder Oil, Mobil 600W™ Super Cylinder Oil and Mobil™ Extra Hecla Super Cylinder Oil are additized to enhance their frictional and load-carrying properties. All four members of the product family are widely used in worm gear applications, couplings and bearings, with viscosity grade depending on operating conditions. In steam applications Mobil 600W Super Cylinder Oil is recommended for saturated and superheated steam up to a temperature of 260ºC. Mobil Extra Hecla Super Cylinder Oil and Mobil Extra Hecla Super Cylinder Oil Mineral may be used with superheated steam above 260ºC. Mobil Extra Hecla Super Cylinder Oil Mineral has good demulsibility. Mobil Cylinder Oils can be applied both by drip feed cups and force feed mechanical lubricating devices.

 

The number refers to the viscosity at room temperature and at steam temperatures it will be considerably thinner. Common numbers are 460, 680 and 1,000 and have the same ISO spec number, hence 460 oil is covered in ISO460.

 

Edited By John Fielding on 18/02/2016 08:08:37

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