Which New Lathe; choices, choices…

[EtheAv8rParticipant @etheav8r]

“This suggests that it doesn’t really matter which is employed if the operator knows what he is doing.”  Yes I have to agree…… but I am not an operator who knows what I am doing, I am a beginner.  However the info re the Warco 280V-F is interesting and I shall check it out…..

[Sam StonesParticipant @samstones42903]

Hi E,

From my experience of almost 65 years, it seems to boil down to :-

“Where should your patience be applied?”

Will it go into the models you make, or into the machinery you choose? I know what put mine to the test.

Anyway, good luck with your choices. I hope you get as much out of your hobbies as I.

Sam

[Donald MitchellParticipant @donaldmitchell68891]

Hi all,

 

While there has been plenty talk of lathes/mills by all the usual suppliers; ie Warco, Chester, Myford, Emco etc., nobody has mentioned the range offered by the Excel Machine Tool Company of Coventry.

 

I myself have a bit of a possible hankering towards the “Opti D320x630” lathe and wonder if anyone might have any comments for or against it – or any others in their range?

 

Check out the range at

 

http://www.excelmachinetools[dot]co[dot]uk/

 

Donald Mitchell

Castle Douglas

Bonnie Scotland

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

They are still basically the same Weiss machines with a different pait job

 

J&L also do the Optimum range.

 

There is also Engineers Toolroom, RDG and Amadeal for the 280 lathes.

 

Jason

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Terryd. the Harrison M300 weighs in at 583Kg

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Thanks for that Kwil,

 

I never got to weigh then, I must admit I thought they would be heavier with such a great mass of cast iron.  I obviously am not much good at estimating weights   I thought it would be much more than 21/2 times the weight of my Warco being such a solid industrial beast with substantial stand! 

 

Terry

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

EtheA, this shows my lathe running at the slowest speed, you can also see the two speed ranges depending on what pully you are running the belt on.

 

 

Terry if you are getting the stand with your lateh you may want to replace the curved panel between the two cabinets with something thats a bit less wasteful of space.

 

Also put some mastic under the lathe feet before you bolt it down through the drip tray, the gearbox does weep a bit of oil that will drip down into the cabinet though it does keep the rust off the tooling in there

 

The feed chart on the lathe does not show any feeds for the “C” range but it can be used to give an even finer cross feed than those shown.

 

And yes before anyone says I have removed the chuck guard mainly because the toolpost hits it when you want to work near the chuck and any faceplate work is impossible with it in place unless you want 6″ of tool hanging out the holder.

 

Jason

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Terryd, View last pic in My Album to see M300 on its move, same wheel set also moved the Bridgeport, which does weigh in at 1.25Ton!

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi Kwil,

 

That brings back memories, although ours was the older Beige sort of brown colour if I remember correctly.  Really great old lathe.

 

Thanks

 

Terry

[BogstandardParticipant @bogstandard]

People are refering to what machines I have.

 

Machine choice has to be down to the individual, not following slavishly what advice is given. They should only act as guidelines.

 

Unless you go for second hand machinery, and there is nothing wrong with that if it is a good one, and being new to this sort of thing, if you take that route, you really need someone along to give you experienced guidance. There are people out there out to make a quick buck, and you can easily end up with something that looks good, but would take loadsa cash to get it put right.

 

In the new machine stakes, the far eastern machinery way does allow you to get a lot for your cash compared to European or British machines,  But on the other hand, Euro and Brit ones should be ready to go from day one, and that is really what your are paying for, as far as I am concerned, they are no better than far eastern ones, just the far eastern ones usually take a fair amount of setting up first. If you are able to do that, or have someone to assist you in getting it done, then that is the way I personally would recommend to go.

 

I bought both my machines new, 3 years ago, at a cost of around £6k. But as I warned earlier this year about far eastern price rises, today, that would be nearer to £10k. I could only have just bought one basic new Euro or Brit machine for that sort on money, and they wouldn’t be as well specced as the machines I have. The lathe I have done a few mods to, just to make it easier for me personally to use, but the mill hasn’t been touched since the day it was sat and levelled on my workshop floor, except for changing a plastic handle for a metal one just after it was settled in, purely for cosmetic reasons, an easily replaced 2 squid bearing because it managed to somehow get a bit of swarf inside it, and the tooling guide pin (a 5mm dog nosed grub screw) in the quill was replaced because a bit of bad tooling got stuck in the quill and I had to belt it out.

Oh! I forgot, the motor on the lathe started to play up a bit after about 6 months use, caused by the start caps. That problem was fixed by the next day when Chester UK sent me a complete new 2HP motor by overnight courier rather than just the replacement caps. It has been perfect ever since.

 

My heart really bleeds for the new starters, because it must be so confusing for them, having all this info pushed at them from all different angles. It is a miracle a lot of them still want to carry on.

 

If only someone could only get organised a web site, where the sorts of new machines that we encounter could be impartially reviewed. That would go a long way to sorting this confusion out. A bit like the magazine Which, but for the model engineer.

 

It is the impartiality that causes the problem, and I am just as guilty of that as well, everyone reviews the machines they have, good or bad, thru their own eyes, rather than in a completely neutral and unbiased way.

 

 

Bogs

[adyParticipant @ady]

These look pretty good.

 

Austrian made.

 

http://www.klippfeld

 

 

Edited By ady on 14/11/2010 16:07:06

[Steam of SteelParticipant @steamofsteel]

Hi E.

 

I acually run a Klippfeld K 10 A and a Wabeco D 2000. both machine are really good. 

I have had both machines from new and no trouble with them.

The Klippfeld was bought as a kit but with an automatic crossfeed as an extra not normally available in the kit version.  The machine came on a Euro pallet with the crytical components preassembled ready for painting and assembly. It went together well and once set up has served me well for many years. 

I believe they still offer the kits. 

 

 

I have in the course of my work purchased a Chinese lathe and used the same, the machine came with a good range of acessories and was ready to go after a good oiling and a basic set up of a couple of hours. 

 

My Chinese metal cutting bandsaw needed a lot more TLC before it would work propperly but as the others have already commented, once put right most of these machine will work propperly. 

 

Garry 

 

[EtheAv8rParticipant @etheav8r]

Bogs – thank you, you are spot-on and can see and understand my position/delema.

Ady – yes the Klippfeld does indeed look pretty good……

Garrelt – the Klippfeld looks very interesting, but I don’t want to buy something I cannot go and see first, nor  something that is not available from a local UK vendor/distributer/dealer of some repute and good standing – I don’t have sufficient (or indeed yet any) experience to go down the direct route.  It is however heartening to get a positive response about the Wabeco from an owner.

I have reviewed my original decision to discount the Warco – and have decided to stand by that decision – the only machine of interest would be the 280V-F and it is just a bit too heavy – the difference between it and the Wabeco/Ceriani are significant.  Plus as observed above although Chinese built machines can work well and properly once the time and effort and expertise is put into them to adjust, and align and sort them out  has been performed, I am not equipped to do this, nor do I know anyone who is.  Plus I get the impression that this tweaking is an on-going requirement rather than a one off ‘job done’ effort, particularly where the machine is not regularly and frequently used.  .  I am a beginner, and a solo one at that and need/want a machine that is good from the first-off, particularly as it seems that there are some lemons, or ‘Friday’ machines out there, and Sods law says I will be unlucky enough to get one!

So I continue with the shortlist of the Ceriani David 203VS or the Wabeco D3000E, D4000E or possibly D6000E (but will find it difficult to find or justify the extra £1k+ for the latter over the other two Wabeco machines).

Joining a local Model Engineers club is not so easy – I have no interest in steam engines or railways, I am only interested in learning to use a lathe for my own ‘potterings’.

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Av8r.

OK, so you’ve narrowed it down to just the 3 (possibly 4) machines, as you seem to have ruled out all Chinese made machines. We now need to know which features are causing  you concern, out of the lathes on your shortlist.

 

 

Martin.

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi Bogs,

 

I’m not sure how to read the first sentence of your posting, do you object to my mentioning that you use a Chinese lathe?  If so I’m very sorry, I meant no offence but I merely mentioned you as one example of a skilled and satisfied user of Chinese equipment, not using you as a recommendation.  I thought that it was common knowledge that you used these machines after all your postings on the various forums of which we are members .

 

I’ve had Chinese milling machines in the past but never a lathe.  I saw your postings on setting up your milling machine in your workshop on, I think it was the HMEM forum, but ! haven’t seen any on what was involved with your Lathe.  As I’ve just bought a Warco Chinese lathe I would be grateful if you could point me to any tips on setting up such a machine.

 

Av8r,

I see that you have decided to go for the Wabeco or Ceriani Lathe.  I have no experience of either.  The only opinion I have ever heard on the latter was from a technician at one of the larger importers of machines.  When I was visiting several dealers to view before deciding myself, he was of the opinion that they were over priced.  Remember it was just his opinion but he was handling the whole range of machines.

 

Just a word of advice, even the best lathe must be set up correctly on site, it isn’t just a case of put it on a bench, plug in and go.  You need to ensure that it is level and there is no twist in the bed as these factors can seriously affect the accuracy of the machine. Also any machine will need adjustment and servicing eventually even if it is adjusting the gibs occasionally.   I suggest that you obtain at least one of the beginners guide texts and look for information on the other more specific forums such as the 9-20 forum.  Although these focus on specific machines, much of the advice is generic.

 

Let us know how you get on

 

Best regards

 

Terr

[Steam of SteelParticipant @steamofsteel]

Hi E

 

as we can see you have narrowed the coice down wisely.  I unfortunately can not give any advice to a reputable UK dealer though having dealt with both Klippfeld and Wabeco direct have had good experience with them. I have not seen a UK dealer advertising Klippfeld Lathes and if they are represented at the Echtdampftreffen in Kologne on Sunday I will mention this to them.  Wabeco will be there I am sure.

 

If you look on their Homepage ( The German one ) you will find exhebition machines at reduced prices this may be of interest to you. 

 

If you find a UK dealer he may also have access to these machines!

 

https://www.wabeco-remscheid.de/index.php?cat=c2010_Ausstellungsmaschinen—Blatt-zum-Ausdrucken.html

Accessories are available and Wabeco have an intersting shop on Ebay.de

 

http://stores.ebay.de/WABECO-Shop

 

Rgds 

 

G.

 

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Pro Machine Tools do the Wabeco range in teh UK. I have used them in the past for a couple of spare belts for my Emco and they were able to get them from Austria even though the lathe had not been made for about 20years. They have been at Sandown in the past maybe David could say if they will be there this year.

 

Jason

[Anonymous]

Hi Edmund,

 

I’m not directly familiar with the lathes you’re considering, but if you’d like to have a cuppa and a chat about lathes, and flying, feel free to drop by, I’m not that far away. You can even nip down in the Jabiru, I’m right on the edge of Bourn airfield.

 

Regards,

 

Andrew

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi There

At the moment I don’t believe they have booked.

Just as well because we are running out of space.

Sandown Park will be bursting at the seams this year.

 

Belts are readily available, I used to buy mine from the local bearing shop.

regards David

[BogstandardParticipant @bogstandard]

TerryD,

 

No offence was intended.

 

It was the reference that my owning chinese machines that was the problem. To me, it came over that because I have and use them, means that they MUST be OK.

 

I do extol the virtues of the lathe and mill I do possess, but not quite so other earlier chinese machinery that I own, and would recommend those two if someone asked me personally if those particular models were any good.

Which shows the problem, impartial advice. I can only go on my experiences about two machines (plus a few others that I have had the good fortune to closely inspect and use) and others that I have owned or used during my lifetime.

 

You just can’t group a large range of machines into a single phrase as being all good or all bad. There will always be a few black sheep lurking in the background, and then some real gems.

 

But one thing I do know, having followed the course of far eastern machines since from some of the  hammer and chisel creations they came up with in the 70’s and 80’s, to modern day high precision offerings. In the last ten years, their quality has taken a massive leap forwards, and if they continue on the same course, in another ten years, the quality should be up with the best of them.

 

BUT, the prices will also rise, like recently. Very rarely can you find quality and cheapness hand in hand. The more that is done by the manufacturers to gain that quality and fine tuning, the more you will have to pay for an item.

 

Bogs

 

[EtheAv8rParticipant @etheav8r]

I am already in touch with Pro machine Tools and plan to go and visit them in the coming week or so.

 

I have seen the Ceriani a few weeks ago on a visit to Chester tools, where I determined I would go for the DB10V – the Ceriani looked really nice, but at that time I was working to a lower budget.  I have now got a detailed quote for a Ceriani and bits neede to make it useful…. Ouch!

 

I plan to have a DRO – the Chester Ceriani quote includes a budget one already fitted by them for very reasonable money.  The Wabeco DRO looks to be in an altogether different price league, but Pro Machine Tools also offer the Newall Microsyn, but still over twice the price of the Chester budget item.

 

Andrew – I will indeed take up your kind offer.  I don’t go to Bourne often (landing fes…) but regularly fly into Main Hall farm in Connington – next door to Bourne, but also live only 15 miles away and the drive is nowt.

[Anonymous]

Hi Edmund,

 

Ah, didn’t think about landing fees. I’ve done my bi-annual renewal flight a few times from Bourn, but I’ve only flown in there once from somewhere else. That was in the Pawnee, to drag a glider out, and being in the evening, there wasn’t anybody there to collect a landing fee!

 

I’ll PM you with contact details.

 

Regards,

 

Andrew

Edited By Andrew Johnston on 16/11/2010 22:10:22

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

In view of some of the evidence here http://www.lathes.co.uk/wabeco/index.html and here http://www.lathes.co.uk/wabeco/page8.html of these machines being of quite basic construction, I’d be more inclined to try Myford, as something like this  http://www.myford.com/200301.html is probably cheaper and easier to tool up.

 

Martin.

[EtheAv8rParticipant @etheav8r]

Choice now made – Wabeco D6000E.  Was nearly the Wabeco D3000E – in fact it was ordered after a 5 hour visit to Pro Machine tools where I recieved lots of help, no hassle, and was left on my own to play with all 3 machines. 

 

The D4000E is a truely wonderfull little machine, very fine quality and perfectly up to all my model helicopter and small parts needs, it is so dinky I fell in love with it.  But the E3000E is so much more capable, and with the very fine feed screws on everything, perfect for small, accurate work, but I went for the Wabeco D6000E (after getting home and revieing my decision to order the D3000E) with a Newall DRO to future proof any potential growth in.

 

I did not want a Myford.

Edited By EtheAv8r on 24/11/2010 20:26:29

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi There,

 

Does the machine have Powered cross feed, I was thinking of tbuying one but didn’t think it was available with this facility?  Also have they overcome the problem of the reverse mechanism on the leadscrew?

 

Terry

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