Which is better?

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by RevStew on 13/08/2018 20:05:42:

…

BTW I don't even think of 3D printing as model engineering any more than I think of printing an A4 copy of a Canaletto as art.

But an A4 copy of a Canaletto can't be anything other than art can it? It may not be an original, or as textured as the real one, but it certainly gives insight into the artists eye and technique. For the purpose of appreciation, an A4 print might even be better : a good colour reproduction in a descriptive book may be more satisfying than a few minutes in a museum with the mob pressing behind for their turn.

No reason why 3D printing can't be applied to model making or art for that matter. I've heard tell that the Leonardo didn't plaster his own walls, or grind his own pigment. Some say he used cartoons to plan scenesand that apprentices and assistants painted most of the background. I bet Michelangelo would have used a hydraulic lift in the Sistine Chapel if there had been one handy.

Nothing wrong with harking back to the simplicities of yesteryear but honestly it wasn't a bed of roses!

Dave

[Fowlers FuryParticipant @fowlersfury]

Some years ago (can't be bothered to look up when), the editor-of-the-day for Model Engineer decided to include a pull-out, tick-box, 4 page readers' survey.
You were asked things such as "do you want more (or less) on making tools, visits to MESocs, etc?"
The eventual conclusion was something like "we seem to have got it about right".
Totally meaningless of course – it was a classic self-selecting population. If you were parting with your money to buy the magazine then you would feel "they've got it about right".
The ones to have surveyed should have been those who had cancelled their subscriptions.
Personally, I beleive the rot set in when it was decided to split Model Engineer into two – M.E. and M.E.W. It has diluted the interest there was in a single, all embracing magazine. Perhaps that is one reason why those 50s and 60s copies still fascinate.
(Unless of course you are trying to build a loco to a Martin Evans serial).

[RevStewParticipant @revstew]

I have a commercial pilot's licence, and used to think it was fun to pontificate to lesser minions on web forums, until vastly more experienced chaps who see the qualifications as nothing more than a coarse filter put me to rights.

Funnily enough, my old boss used to sign off his emails with BSc Hons, MILT (something to do with logistcs) until I explained that milt is fish sperm.

Seriously though, I do try to work through the equations in some ME articles, if someone has gone to the effort of writing it I should at least try to follow, but then I think, what the hell am I doing? this is supposed to be fun.

[RevStewParticipant @revstew]

I agree Fowlers Fury, how on earth can they justify 2 magazines? Was there not an outcry when MEW came out with people going…hang on a minute…so you're reducing the content in one, and bringing out another mag to publish what was in the original mag, and charging me for two magazines now?

[richardandtracyParticipant @richardandtracy]

Posted by JasonB on 13/08/2018 20:54:45:

True, the Rev may live on his own in which case any room can be used for his hobby

Having difficulty seeing any problem in that photo. Looks like a useful setup. Shame there's a dog when a cat would be more sensible, otherwise it looks just tickety-boo to me.

Regards,

Richard.

[RevStewParticipant @revstew]

Heath Robinson back scratcher?

[Simon CollierParticipant @simoncollier74340]

Concurrent series on turning for beginners in ME and MEW says it all. There is probably sufficient good content for one magazine, not three. I do like the full colour, high quality photos in the modern magazines though. My enjoyment of the old magazines and books is limited by the grainy, unclear black and white photos. I take only ME now and may not renew.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by RevStew on 13/08/2018 20:26:26:…

…

Just finished reading ME from Feb 14th 1946, and Percival Marshall's comment in 'Smoke Rings' called 'making a start' nearly brought a tear to my eye. Over the page, and the first article? Building a model ship…From paper…

That's all they had in them days. There'd been a war on, y'know.

Mind you, this guy just spent 10 years making a paper model jumbo jet. Could be something you're interested in trying?

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 13/08/2018 18:09:52:…

…

Besides, surely Neil Wyatt is a giant of the model engineering world? LBSC stood 4' 11" in his high-heels…

Damn! Just sprayed my morning coffee all over my keyboard.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Don't worry it's not my back garden, just a chap using his static mounted hiab to move the final drive gear of his TE into the dining room to work on it. I thought it would appeal to teh Rev as he used a ratchet drill for some of the holes.

[richardandtracyParticipant @richardandtracy]

Posted by RevStew on 13/08/2018 21:11:08:

…I do like the Gingery lathe idea. I'd considered that a while ago, and I got the (I think it was the Sparey) book too.

Part of the appeal is the crucible bit, even if only to make the neighbours think 'what dreadful alchemy, may I …

The Gingery lathe is basic, but functional. Being basic, it forces you to be a better machinist if you are to get the same quality of work out of it that you'd get from a less basic machine. Takes longer, but you learn more.

As for the furnace, I have made a similar one from available materials. Did it in 2002. and I wrote it up here: **LINK** . It is now on the point of having the base drop out (15 years on), but I have done 50 odd firings with it, and it cost £2 at the time. In the article I wrote I've also written about different fuels. At the moment I'm using 1" cube chunks cut from a hardwood conservatory a local builder gave us after he replaced it – we have a 'reputation' locally for taking any fuel people offer us. Pallets, timber, spare logs etc. If it's woodlike & flammable we'll take it to reduce our heating bills, and it saves them a tip trip. The hardwood chunks release much more heat than pallet timber, but quite a bit more slowly, so they need to be cut quite small to increase the surface area to release the heat fast enough. Anyway, once the furnace is hot enough with timber it consumes its own smoke, so is virtually smoke free and bothers the neighbours no more, and probably less, than a barbecue.

Regards,

Richard.

[Jon LawesParticipant @jonlawes51698]

Light a candle or curse the darkness, it's up to you. Magazines and societies were started by people who didn't have one to read/attend. They improve through peoples contributions. One day, when I have something I can share (I'm very much an amateur now, entry level at best) I hope I can bring something to ME to help others out or incite their interest.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Editing a magazine like MEW is a big responsibility, with ME, EiM, the various exhibitions and this forum they do help 'bind together' a community of interest, all against a background where 'grey imports' and pirated plans make it hard for any traditional small business supporting hobbyists to survive.

120 years ago it was Model Engineer magazine that effectively defined the scope of the hobby of model engineering. In those days it was much more experimental and wide ranging, partly because there was a dearth of other technical magazines supporting hobbies like aeromodelling, model boating and the emerging field of electronics. Of course Percival Marshall being an exceptionally astute businessman merrily span off other hobby titles with gay abandon over the next fifty years.

It's hard to imagine that if CNC, embedded electronics, the 'internet of things' and 3D printing had been available back in his day he wouldn't have found space for them in ME, and possibly set up new titles for them as they grew!

The challenge for MEW is to cover these technologies without losing site of traditional ways of working. It will surprise people that the overlap in readership between ME and MEW is only about 20-25%. There may be some overlap in subject matter but probably less than Good Woodworking and The Woodworker.

Forum members probably don't realise how much the discussions on here influence the shape of the magazine, or that we try to put advanced, intermediate and beginner's articles into every issue. That we try and include new technology, basic skills and traditional machining each time, and that from time to time things are spiced up by looking at skills from areas beyond traditional 'hobby engineering' that still have applications in our workshops.

This can frustrate contributors as, although I try to use material roughly in order of submission things can jump the queue to better balance an issue, or be held back if they are too close to a recently published article.

As always I seem to have plenty of longer articles stocked up, but a shortage of brief ones of 4-500 words and a few photos, I'd always encourage new contributors to send in short articles – bearing in mind the shorter the article the further we can stray from our core content (I have a poem about engineering lined up for the future…)

A recent article on a seismometer was well received (well received means I got some positive emails about it!) and I'm encouraged to seek articles about measurement and instrumentation that looks a bit wider than our workshops. It's clear from the forum that issues of measurement, precision and accuracy interest a large group of readers, even where these are unlikely to be used in the workshop. (Anyone up for articles on measuring length using laser interferometry or Ronchi testing?)

Less esoteric subjects I'd like to cover include the 'care and feeding' of different types of battery and I'd dearly appreciate a few articles on basic skills like filing, scraping and even sawing.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

My old copies of Model Engineer from the 40's and 50's are easy to read etc

This was the heyday for the hobby

We'd just had WW2, if you weren't in fighting or support services you were in industry

Industry was millions of people working hundreds of thousands of manual machine tools, we will not see its like ever again

Plus there was a glut of machine tools in the post WW2 period as companies lowered their outputs

[Kiwi BlokeParticipant @kiwibloke62605]

ME used to have staff writers who knew their stuff. Now it seems that it has to rely on submissions from the public. Not all members of the public are authorities… Just trying to ensure that submissions are sensible and correct must place what I would think is a barely tolerable burden on the editor(s). Occasionally the burden seems too much. Dare I add to the burden by requesting better proof-reading?

The general public seems to accept dumbing-down. Modern journalism too often values entertainment over information. The horrible neologism 'infotainment' has been coined in recognition of this phenomenon. It's dammned hard to write well-informed copy, but easy to waffle on about your own opinions. The 'hi-fi' and popular automobile journals are prime examples. So, if business is all about making money – and the product be damned – and the sheeple are happy to pay, we get where we are.

Sorry – last remark meant in general, not to insult ME or MEW.

Edited By Kiwi Bloke 1 on 14/08/2018 11:33:13

Edited By Kiwi Bloke 1 on 14/08/2018 11:35:54

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

I've paged through old copies of ME, and don't consider them to be easy to read.That's partly due to the terribly stilted house style, they cover a lot technical subjects in multi part articles and that much of the copy is descriptions of physical things. They read like Dicken's definition of a horse in Hard Times – Quadruped. Gramnivorous. Forty teeth etc etc – all true, but hardly helpful. That's because clear, annotated photos were not easy things to publish. Today, that limitation is gone; anyone can take photo of a setup, name each part directly on the picture and add it to their text in far less time than it takes to write a clear description of the same. That's why modern tech magazines are full of pictures and it's for the better.

I page through ME, but rarely find enough of interest to make it worth buying. I'm not a model engineer though; the closest I get to any of the usual topics is a wish to build a simple clock. MEW is a better fit for me, and much of that value is the actual design of the tools described.

[Anonymous]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 14/08/2018 09:20:06:

It will surprise people that the overlap in readership between ME and MEW is only about 20-25%. There may be some overlap in subject matter………………

Ah well, as usual I'm in the minority as I take both ME and MEW; ME since the early 1970s and MEW from issue 1.

Andrew

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Nicholas Wheeler 1 on 14/08/2018 11:38:13:

anyone can take photo of a setup, name each part directly on the picture and add it to their text in far less time than it takes to write a clear description of the same.

I welcome annotated pictures for MEW but ideally send a clean copy of the picture too, because:

• We are supposed to only use fonts we have a licence for
• Contributors don't know what size we will print the image or how we will crop it
• We always colour correct images with writing on as well as we would like
• Contributors don't always choose the most legible colours or fonts

If we get a 'clean' copy we will copy the annotations onto it.

Thanks

Neil

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Posted by Fowlers Fury on 13/08/2018 22:00:02:

Personally, I beleive the rot set in when it was decided to split Model Engineer into two – M.E. and M.E.W.

Don't forget that ME used to cover boating as well until Model Boats magazine took the market. From the seventies as computer based editing and printing made it all cheaper, along with better photo printing there was an explosion of magazines for every hobby or interest. My sister was an editor for a publishing house and started a few titles by being given budget for two issues and an advertising salesman. If the salesman could sell enough advertising it survived, otherwise it folded and on to try another idea.
Since the internet became cheap and portable the magazine era is dying. Like high street shops they must consolidate themselves, get bought by an asset stripper or linger on and risk crashing out like BHS.

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Posted by Nicholas Wheeler 1 on 14/08/2018 11:38:13:

anyone can take photo of a setup, name each part directly on the picture and add it to their text in far less time than it takes to write a clear description of the same.

A rather sweeping statement I fear, I somehow doubt that a majority have the actual capacity to do this, best left to the Editor to choose.

[RevStewParticipant @revstew]

I went to the shops the other day and picked up Aeromodeller, Model Boats, ME and MEW, to cover my interests, and thought damn there's no change from £20 there !!…I put them all back on the shelf.

Give me the simple days of one magazine dropping on your doormat to read the covers 'off of' (dreadful Americanism) with a cup of tea. A treat every 2 weeks for the average Joe. Job done.

[Jon LawesParticipant @jonlawes51698]

January 1970 ME, adjusted for inflation, costs the equivalent of £3.80 in todays money. People earn on average about £80 a week more than they did in 1970 (I googled it. Lots of variation in the data but it seems about right). I don't think thats a bad price rise for a dwindling hobby.

RevStew, You can bemoan today or you can be part of the movement that improves it. ME has had to evolve, and to my eyes its done very well. It's a very specific audience, and it increasingly has to appeal to a new audience or dwindle as the older audience does. Maybe you could submit some articles or suggest some to cover in the future? Because at the moment its just open complaints with no tangible suggestions for making things better.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by RevStew on 14/08/2018 14:57:59:

I went to the shops the other day and picked up Aeromodeller, Model Boats, ME and MEW, to cover my interests, and thought damn there's no change from £20 there !!…I put them all back on the shelf.

Give me the simple days of one magazine dropping on your doormat to read the covers 'off of' (dreadful Americanism) with a cup of tea. A treat every 2 weeks for the average Joe. Job done.

If you don't buy the mags, they'll disappear…

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Jon Lawes on 14/08/2018 16:40:35:

RevStew, You can bemoan today or you can be part of the movement that improves it. ME has had to evolve, and to my eyes its done very well. It's a very specific audience, and it increasingly has to appeal to a new audience or dwindle as the older audience does. Maybe you could submit some articles or suggest some to cover in the future? Because at the moment its just open complaints with no tangible suggestions for making things better.

It's fairly clear what the solution is, we should become like Radio 4 Extra and just reprint old articles…

Neil

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

Don't worry, Rev Stew that off of is American. When I were a lad the local expression was 'from off of' and that was before the Yanks arrived locally.

Tim

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