Wabeco 2000/3000 Lathes

[paul goughParticipant @paulgough22431]

I cannot find any comments by users of these bar bed lathes and would like to hear from users about their experience with it and their opinion of them for model work up to small 5" gauge locos etc. I prefer simple manual machines that are also examples of quality engineering. I like the feel of a quality item in the hand but also the potential of accurate machining. The projects in mind when I set up my workshop range from; pre. 1850 steam locos to hopefully making a working example of an Alco diesel engine as fitted to locomotives. I was a diesel loco maintenance instructor and troubleshooter. I admit it is many decades since doing any machining, actually not since my apprenticeship, but I remember the sense of achievement in using really ancient and simple machines to get accurate results. Really hoping to hear something from an experienced user of these apparently uncommon lathes.

[paul goughParticipant @paulgough22431]

Comments by users

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

… ^^^ BUMP ^^^ …

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Paul,

I can offer no comment on the Wabeco lathes; but I've just seen your post on the 'lathe design' thread and thought it worth bumping this one up.

MichaelG.

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P.S. … Having just looked at their website: If the machines are as good as the documentation, they should be a delight.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 25/06/2015 06:52:12

[BikepeteParticipant @bikepete]

This is the D3000:

Must admit I'm curious as to why those bar bed lathes even exist. It just looks like a recipe for vibration – can just picture the saddle bouncing up and down like a trampoline in the middle of those slender, unsupported bars. How can that be better in any way than a properly supported lathe bed? I guess if you are DIYing a lathe with minimal resources, a bar bed lathe may be easyish to construct, but Wabeco can clearly make 'proper' lathes too…

Suppose it might just be cheaper, but I for one would rather have the cheapest Chinese lathe with a proper bed (i.e. structurally sensible, and could be improved for fit and finish) than such a fatally noodle-like design… or am I missing something here?

A bar bed is not intrinsically bad, but it needs an order of magnitude beefier bars! I always quite fancied one of these: Kneller lathe – clearly in a different weight/size league but my point is that the slenderness ratio of the bars is far less…

Second edit – Wabeco want 3800 Euros for the D3000! £2700ish. Colour me gobsmacked.

Edited By Bikepete on 25/06/2015 08:34:16

Edited By Bikepete on 25/06/2015 08:34:40

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Try the price of the milling machines and the variants available. Most of all the stuff they sell is high priced including tooling. The only thing is the quality is good.

Clive

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Must admit I'm curious as to why those bar bed lathes even exist.

The Unimat SL market from the 1950s is still thriving and a lot of money flies around because even a clueless amateur can send an entire lathe/milling machine by post

The machine can either be used for making little teeny bits or as a stepping stone to greater things

It shows you "The Ropes" where lathing/milling is concerned, especially the dirty hands, limitations of your tooling and swarf in the flesh part

If you can't handle lathing you pack it up and put it back onto a well known auction site

They are perfect entry level units for anyone who has no clue about machining but wants to have a look at the hobby for themselves

Edit: The bars on the SL are 12mm which is a bit weedy. Now if they had made a 16mm bar version the machine would be much improved

Edited By Ady1 on 25/06/2015 10:09:27

[VicParticipant @vic]

If you don't like it they also make a cast iron bed version:

https://www.wabeco-remscheid.de/lathes/d4000-prismatic-cast-iron-bed.html

[VicParticipant @vic]

We had a small CNC milling machine where I used to work which had linear guides and ball screws. Why are these technologies not used on small Lathes and Mills? It obviously works and is surely better than grinding dovetails etc in cast iron beds. I say this because that Wabeco still has dovetails and gibs on the top slide and cross slide.

[paul goughParticipant @paulgough22431]

Thanks for the replies so far. However as my initial request was for comments from experienced users I would have thought it obvious that I have researched these lathes as extensively as I can. This includes the manufacturers website and a couple of videos on youtube where a 3000 has been set up for CNC. As to lack of rigidity, I can only go by Wabeco's claim that 5mm cuts are possible. Again my initial post indicated the size of likely models, I am aiming at a compact quality workshop, i.e. small bench lathe, vertical mill, bench grinder and a high speed sensitive drill. I don't consider the price of Wabeco outlandish, if you want an accurate quality item that is meant to last a life time then there is always a premium to pay. If I was awash in funds I would probably go for a 102 Schaublin but I don't have tens of thousands to spend and in any case it would be absurd for my usage. Just to reiterate my usage, pre. 1850 steam locos, therefore small. If I ever want a large dia. item machined it is sensible to get someone with the appropriate equipment to undertake one off jobs. Most of the work on a steam loco can be done on near any quality lathe but this is not so true for the machining of a model diesel engines components. Also, as I said, I like the FEEL of a quality item, any tradesman would know what I mean. Hope there is someone out there in the English speaking world who is an experienced user of these bar bed lathes and is prepared to comment meaningfully on them. Paul Gough.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Go onto some of the German forums and ask there as they are far more commonly used. Magazines like "Maschinen im Modellbau" regularly carry articles about teh Wabeco stuff and accesories/mods in much the way the UK mags always seem to have something for a Myford.

Here the mills tend to be more abundant than the lathes

[VicParticipant @vic]

Once you've finished your "learn to speak German" course Paul let us know what you find out!

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Vic on 26/06/2015 12:06:47:

Once you've finished your "learn to speak German" course Paul let us know what you find out!

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Vic,

Google Translate works very well … just paste in the URL

MichaelG.

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Edit: ferinstance

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 26/06/2015 12:31:37

[steamdaveParticipant @steamdave]

Posted by Clive Hartland on 25/06/2015 09:07:43:

Try the price of the milling machines and the variants available. Most of all the stuff they sell is high priced including tooling. The only thing is the quality is good.

Clive

You are right about the high price, but not so sure on the quality. I won't say any more in public, but if you want to know my opinion, send me a pm!

Dave
The Emerald Isle

[paul goughParticipant @paulgough22431]

Thanks for the German mag. tip Jason. I had a look but I could not find anything. I have used Google translate in German before and found it wanting particularly with technical stuff, however using it and other web translators gets you by in a round about way. The old story, stuff that's free often has limitations. I wonder if Pro Machine Tools has ever sold any of these bar beds in the UK. Paul Gough

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I think I would soon tire of having to traverse the carrage using the little geared handwheel at the R/H end of the bed, far better to have a proper handwheel on the apron so you can quickly move the carrage. Have it on the Unimat 3 that wa smy first late and you spend all your time twiddling the handwheel.

I had a quick look through a few of the German hobbiests homepages that I have bookmarked to see if any of them had Wabeco machines, all these guys produce very good models and all bar one seem to be using Optimum/Quantum machines which are just the Warco machines in a different colour.

[paul goughParticipant @paulgough22431]

Thanks Jason for your effort looking up some German model engineers sites. I have seen a couple where they show their workshops and there seems to be a liking for Optimum lathes and mills and I agree there are some very nice stationary steam models as examples of their work. I considered the issue regarding the saddle drive and yes I agree for most users rack and pinion saddle would be less tedious, however, I for the most part, would be making quite small components on this lathe and don't think it an issue for me. With regard to machine acquisition I would not buy one without at least laying my hands on it and manipulating it, my enquiries are part of my research into a short list of machines and an appeal to users opinions can help guide the process. Paul Gough.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

May be worth joining the Yahoo user group to see what they have to say

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by paul gough on 26/06/2015 13:20:26:

I have used Google translate in German before and found it wanting particularly with technical stuff

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Paul,

I don't plan to interfere any further, but I must just mention that most of the 'difficult' technical words in German are simple concatenations of several shorter/simpler words.

MichaelG.

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Such as, ' Crankshaft' is, 'Krankenwelle'.

Clive

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

And 'Hochdruckdampfmotor' is high pressure steam engine – the difficult bit is that google can struggle with taking the spaces out, although it can be a lifesaver.

Getting back to the OP's original topic – I would be interested if the owner of a Wabeco lathe would be willing to write a submission for 'One Man and His Lathe'.

Neil

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Paul (and Neil) I have found the elusive UK rod bed Wabeco owner. I knew he had one of their mills and then reading a post today spotted the bar bed. Drop Simon (SCO) a PM over on MEM and I'm sure he will be of help. This is his current build.

J

[clivelParticipant @clivel]

I have a Unimat PC Basic with bar beds, larger than the Unimat SL but smaller than the Wabeco. I find the whole lathe very rigid and have had no problems with vibration.

All in all I find that the bar beds work well, however one thing that I do find to be a huge annoyance is the lack of a suitable surface to use as a reference. Trying to set up a mag-base and indicator was a trying and time consuming experience (although a recently purchased Noga mag-base has helped considerably).

Clive

[paul goughParticipant @paulgough22431]

Thanks again Jason for the 'tip off' about the 'elusive owner' and I have registered for MEM and am awaiting approval to enter into discussion. I have had a reply from a German modeller I correspond with and he asked for comments on their forums. No owner replies, but unspecified "concerns" about the bar bed lathes with stated preferences for the cast bed Wabeco models or Optimum branded lathes. Whether the concerns are perceived rather than real will only ever be resolved by discussion with an experienced user, (other than me flying to Germany to test one personally). I find it hard to believe that a lathe of German manufacture so specific about accuracy and cutting capacity would risk supplying a design that was deficient. There is no doubt that the lathe is different to most, and thus attracts some scepticism about rigidity and convenience of use with its centre screw feed and only fitted with one auto feed rate. However if the fears are unfounded, then this lightweight, accurate and quite powerful little lathe would suit my purposes amply. I hope MEM approves my registration so I can ask the elusive owner for an appraisal. Regards to all who have shown an interest. Paul Gough.

 

Edited By paul gough on 01/07/2015 12:02:22

[John CoatesParticipant @johncoates48577]

Nowt wrong with bar bed lathes! Mine is of 1947 vintage

**LINK**

Mine is the sixth picture

John

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

You should be able to get your grubby mits on one at Pro machine tools, they don't seem to go to many of the shows now but used to have them on display.

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