vfd question

[Stuart BridgerParticipant @stuartbridger82290]

Dave,

…and your mum used to put a vase of flowers on the TV and top it up with water.
I still remember the incident from when I was a child, all was Ok until she switched it on to see if it was still working.

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

Please show the manufacturer and model number of this pic – I don’t think it is the unit under consideration at all.

I realise that the picture isn't the largest, but even with my less-than-perfect eysight I can read "XSY-AT1" on the rating plate. It appears to be a product of the Xin Shuang Yuan Co.Ltd (also on the rating plate) who appear not to have an easily findable website.

Maybe my version of Google is different to yours (not being funny here – I get different results from my home computer & work computer for the same search term), but searching for XSY- AT1 only gets me these units. There are also AT3 (380V 3 phase input) & AT4 (220V input 380V output) devices. Looking around I can see that there are some Chinese vfds with more exposed terminals, but non of these have been marked XSY-AT1. It would be helpful to have a link to the units you have seen.

Nigel B.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

You are right. It is there. But try looking on you tube. It is very apparent that these units were available with a non-fixed cover. The first hit on epay showed a smaller unit clearly (or unclearly) with a flip-up cover.

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

The first hit on epay showed a smaller unit clearly (or unclearly) with a flip-up cover.

But still with a cover. Covers do not appear to be compulsory :

Currently available UK manufactured chassis mount DC drive. Bit easier to access the mains terminals than on a compact VFD with a flip-up cover, but still available for sale.

Nigel B.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Posted by mgnbuk on 23/03/2020 15:18:22:

The first hit on epay showed a smaller unit clearly (or unclearly) with a flip-up cover.

But still with a cover. Covers do not appear to be compulsory :

Currently available UK manufactured chassis mount DC drive. Bit easier to access the mains terminals than on a compact VFD with a flip-up cover, but still available for sale.

Nigel B.

That is clearly a "component" meant to be incoroporated into a final "product" by a competent entity that ensures it's safeand compliant. Most VFDs fall in the same category it's just not so obvious from looking at them that you need to put them in a box with an isolator, fuse, filter etc.

Robert G8RPI.

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

That is clearly a "component" meant to be incoroporated into a final "product" by a competent entity that ensures it's safeand compliant. Most VFDs fall in the same category it's just not so obvious from looking at them that you need to put them in a box with an isolator, fuse, filter etc.

Which is the point I was labouring to try & make, Robert.

In some ways, the type of terminal cover NDIY prefers seems to me to be less safe overall, as it leads untrained users to make the wrong decisions about mounting these (at best) IP20 components – screwing them to walls behind the machine being the all too regular dubious choice. More visible terminals might make some reconsider this approach, though I accept that some might just go ahead anyway regardless of the consequences.

Nigel B.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Stuart Bridger on 23/03/2020 11:55:55:

Dave,

…and your mum used to put a vase of flowers on the TV and top it up with water.
I still remember the incident from when I was a child, all was Ok until she switched it on to see if it was still working.

After I left uni I had an ancient valve B&W tv. I left half pound of butter on top. Picked it up and lots of it went inside..

After that if it wasn't used for a day or two, you had to run it for half an hour before it dried out enough to work… but i didn't watch it much (still don't watch TV much!)

Neil

[john barnes 4Participant @johnbarnes4]

For those of you who are interested the link provided by mgnbuk is for a 1.5kw VFD mine is a .75kw. Mine does not have the cooling fans but other than that appears almost identical. Martin and Dave both expressed concern about the motor getting too hot. I ran the motor today at 50hz for 20 mins. and it remained completely cool. Just to test it for tripping I increased it to 85hz and it was ok. John.

[Martin of WickParticipant @martinofwick]

Sounds good John, Check the back of the VFD too. There is a thermal trip parameter. I think the default may be 85c, you may want to reduce that by 15 to 20c to protect the unit if it runs hot (there is also the possibility of fitting a fan).

The display current and voltage could be anywhere in the VFD, on the DC bus for example, so would treat them as indicative readings but always best to check the equipment.

Just all part of the fun from those whacky xsy guys!

[john barnes 4Participant @johnbarnes4]

That sounds like good advice Martin. I did not think to check the VFD. I am sure I have seen a thermal overload setting of 80 degrees in the parameters. I will check it out tomorrow. John.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by john barnes 4 on 23/03/2020 22:16:24:

…

Martin and Dave both expressed concern about the motor getting too hot. I ran the motor today at 50hz for 20 mins. and it remained completely cool…

Excellent news! It means the current reported by the VFD is misleading. Understanding the Manual on these beasts is hard, so it may be displaying peak amps or one of the trip settings rather than average input or output amps.

But the acid test is motor temperature; the motor and VFD should both be good if the motor runs cool off-load as it should. I'd carry on on the assumption all is well but watch for trouble again when cutting. If anything amiss occurs ask again!

Good luck,

Dave

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

Dead right about the difficulty of understanding the manual. They are intended for electrical engineers, not the man in the street. Serves you right if you cannot understand it, that comes from being more interested in the cheap price than actually doing your homework first. I did my homework and didn't have to ask how to install the vfd I chose.

[EmgeeParticipant @emgee]

Check this video at 10mins in, goes through the manual setting numbers. Looks like the VFD being discussed.

**LINK**

Emgee

[john barnes 4Participant @johnbarnes4]

Good find Emgee. I wish mine had been as easy as that to set up. John.

[Martin of WickParticipant @martinofwick]

The problem with the XSY manual is its extreme brevity! In truth there is not a lot of adjustable features anyway, just the basics that are fairly straightforward as below.

Users must have regard to the VF slope – default is OK for most AC workshop motors

Ramp rate settings are self evident defaults are ok to start

Torque control is a percent setting

slowdown/braking setup straightforward

Overcurrent setting simple

The issues with VI keypad display I now believe to be due to issue of VFD pulsed output. I put my new clamp-on meter on a phase to the motor and it was in pretty good agreement with the VFD keypad.

Unfortunately the clamp-on meter has no low pass filtering so gives erroneous VI on non sine wave form, which suggest the keypad monitor also struggles to provide a RMS output of VI. Would need to find someone with a scope or a fluke analyser to do more investigation.

[LynneParticipant @lynne]

I have recently invested in a VFD for my mill, I've been following much of the thread with interest. I now know, that having had a few problems, it must stem from not having sat, and RTM what ever that is; applied logic, though I think that a knowledge of the subject helps the application of logic, and it is certainly not 'pretty simple'. It seems from 'Old Mart's'. assessment, that my not being an electrical engineer, I am not going to understand the manual, and it serves me right. Do the homework and you will not need to ask how to install it. Right. Andrew summed it up very succinctly 'VFD's are pretty straight forward, but you do need a fair degree of 'knowledge' to set one up, and to understand manuals. I am now reluctant to ask a question. Regards, Lynne

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

RTFM, I expect, means Read The Manual. 🙂

No problem in asking questions but unless you are expecting replies of ‘press button ‘a’ enter number ‘b’ and press key ‘c’, etc’ from an actual user of your machine (or someone who understands the programming for that inverter) you would be best served by trying to RTFM (possibly several times) perhaps highlighting the parts that apply to your anticipated usage. Also make sure you disable any potential conflicting settings which may override those you need.

In the case of one inverter, I needed to choose an option to avoid it thinking I intended to use the 400Hz end of the frequency range (It initially tried to ramp up to possibly 5000+ rpm even though I had set it to a maximum of 80Hz). Manuals often look very similar – but if they are not identical they may not be appropriate to your model or even a different version of that same model number.

As suggested earlier (more than once) – if you are not confident of sorting it, buy from a reliable UK supplier who will give you after-sales help. Clearly it tends to cost more but do remember that the advice from a forum may only be worth what you paid for it!

[Martin of WickParticipant @martinofwick]

Posted by Lynne on 26/03/2020 10:32:13:

I am now reluctant to ask a question. Regards, Lynne

Why?

I thought that is what this forum is for. There is no guarantee that your problem can be resolved but it doesn't cost to ask.

Published technical guidance can be pretty obscure when you come across it for the first time, but it is usually the case that the key functions can be explained in a more helpful way.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Lynne on 26/03/2020 10:32:13:

… I am now reluctant to ask a question. Regards, Lynne

Never be reluctant to ask a question! Even if the unhelpful answer is 'Read the Flipping Manual' or 'Google it'.

Seems to me many modern VFD's come pre-set with sensible defaults and plugging it in might 'just work'. Gets complicated if something a bit unusual is wanted like running a motor faster than 50Hz.

VFD manuals are often aimed at professional installers. They're almost certainly electricians who've done a training course or two rather than full-blown electrical engineers or geniuses. The training puts the manual in context as a memory aid rather than a set of instructions.

VFD Manuals can be difficult. Those for professional units are often particularly terse, and some of the simpler consumer manuals trying to be helpful are lost in translation.

There's no shame in asking for help. If it unblocks the drain you've won!

Dave

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Lynne on 26/03/2020 10:32:13:

I have recently invested in a VFD for my mill, I've been following much of the thread with interest. I now know, that having had a few problems, it must stem from not having sat, and RTM what ever that is; applied logic, though I think that a knowledge of the subject helps the application of logic, and it is certainly not 'pretty simple'. It seems from 'Old Mart's'. assessment, that my not being an electrical engineer, I am not going to understand the manual, and it serves me right. Do the homework and you will not need to ask how to install it. Right. Andrew summed it up very succinctly 'VFD's are pretty straight forward, but you do need a fair degree of 'knowledge' to set one up, and to understand manuals. I am now reluctant to ask a question. Regards, Lynne

If you are unsure, consider going to Transwave, they sell sets of matched motor, VFD and pendant ready set up.

I bought a motor and VFD off them and made my own pendant. They supplied a very clear guide.

I did delve into the inverter's more sophisticated side when I made a full control box, but this is NOT essential to success.

Neil

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

When I was thinking about getting a new motor and vfd for the Tom Senior, I read the numerous threads on this and the Home Shop Machinist forums regarding setting up of vfd's. It was obvious to me that a novice like me was unlikely to understand the advice given by experts however well meaning they are hoping to be. I couldn't understand the explanations. As soon as I saw the quick start guides on the Inverter Drive Supermarket with the step by step wiring and programming in a format I could understand, it was a no brainer. There are several firms selling pre made kits which bypass most of the problems, but they were well past my budget.

[Anonymous]

Posted by old mart on 26/03/2020 15:49:36:

…. a novice like me was unlikely to understand the advice given by experts however well meaning they are hoping to be.

The trouble with experts is that one needs to already be an expert to work out who is an expert and who is merely an ex-spurt.

Andrew

[John RutzenParticipant @johnrutzen76569]

Hello Joseph noci, thank you for your post which is very helpful. I am setting up a 0.45kw at1 vfd and would like to ask about some of the settings please. P0 to P10 . P2 is 35 volts, what should I set this at? The motor is a 0.25kw 3phase delta connected.P4 is 4hz, again what should this be? P34 is 10hz, should I change this? P78 is at 9000ma which is way high, It takes about 15 minutes of holding the button down to reduce it to 1400. [ rated current plus 20%] I've done this but I would like to know if I have to reduce P79 through P83 as well. They are all 9000ma. Thank you! John

[Martin of WickParticipant @martinofwick]

John, check carefully, is it one of these? If not, you will need to post the relevant part of your manual.

**LINK**

If so set P1 to P11 as per listed defaults for your voltage system (220v, I assume)

If P78 is listed as Main current overload on your instructions, set as 2000 for 1/3Hp motor to start with.

You do not need to repeat this for P79 to P85 unless you intend to use pre set operating conditions selected by a rotary switch.

P34 Main Rising Velocity can be set to your desired ramp start speed. At 10 Hz/s, run up to full speed at 50Hz will be about 5 secs (i.e. 50/10). For example, if you changed it to 25, run up to full speed will take about 2 sec.

Find a youtube video on how to use the shift key to rapidly select the digits you want to change rapidly with the arrow keys.

[John RutzenParticipant @johnrutzen76569]

Thanks, I'll set those as you suggest. It does run ok, I've set all the current maximums to 1400ma, I found how to use the shift key to set things quickly. I've got P34 set at 10Hz/s and it is fine. It is for a drilling machine so i don't anticipate high loadings. I tend to use little drills, if I want to drill a big hole in steel I can still use the pulleys to change the speed.

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