TIG WELDING BOILER

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Hi can anyone tell me what welding rods to use for welding 5 inch boiler.

I am building from scratch think it will be easier than Gas and hope its cheaper to,

i have looked at welding site but list's three different types of Rods

Ron

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

[SteambuffParticipant @steambuff]

Ron,

One quick 'side' question, are you a member of a ME club or plan to run in public? If so you need to speak to your boiler inspector first. (I think you need to be a coded welder and/or provide samples as well)

Dave

[nigel jones 5Participant @nigeljones5]

Hi Ron

I don't mean to be rude but if you have to ask this question then you don't have a hope in heck of welding a boiler. Sorry but that's just how it is – it would never be steam tight and most certainly wouldn't pass a test. Im not being negative, im being realistic, honestly I am. Have a look at one of my old posts where I build a boiler for under £200 and you might see where I am coming from. Having said this I will offer some help.

Rod type is governed by boiler material type. If its a copper boiler you will need an industrial water cooled tig set to get the amps needed for that thickness, 250 amps or above – and that makes it 3 phase. the copper must all be deoxy – or it will crack – fact! You need a good understanding of weld prep. You will also have to completely redesign the boiler and have the design approved as you can not weld up a boiler which was designed to be soldered, the joints are all completely wrong. Then theres the aspect of ability and/or qualifications…

On the other hand, if it is to be used and seen only by you, you can do whatever you like – but it will leak! Steel is far more forgiving, much easier to work, loads cheaper and you can just about use a non professional weld set for it….but again, unless you are an extremely experienced welder it will leak!

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Hi Thank you for feedback no i am not a coded welder i did used to be a gas welder Arc welder and Mig welder for many years.

Having said that i was not going to do it myself my son who welds alloy and stainless all day long was going to do it for me.

I just have to buy the rods for him so he can take to work and do in his breaks for me.

Thanks for the advice

Ron

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

Oh dear, Machine Mart strikes again. It was bound to happen (and prophesied) once the disposable income brigade were able to buy cheap professional (???) equipment for "Gluing" metal together.

For "Welding pressure vessels", the term Coded welder comes into operation. Ran a fabrication shop with a dozen welders, three were "Coded" and only one of the three "Coded" to weld approval for British Rail.

You're allowed to blow yourself up but Insurance companies/HSE get really naffed off if you attempt to injure the innocent unwashed.

 

Regards Ian.

 

Edit, Just read the "welds Stainless and Alloy all day long", Yes so could ALL of mine.

Edited By Circlip on 20/09/2014 11:37:41

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Ron, this is Fizzy's thread where he shows the build of his boiler. As you can see it can be done without a coded welder provided the joints pass a relatively inexpensive test.

J

[John BaguleyParticipant @johnbaguley78655]

Jason,

You will probably know the answer to this as I know the traction engine people do this quite often. If I provide all the materials cut out, do the weld preps etc. and then pay a welder to stick it all together for me, what's the situation regarding CE marking of the boiler. Is it necessary, in other words, would it still be classed as a home built boiler?

I need to get a new copper boiler made for a 5" loco (KIng) that I am completing for a friend who runs a small engineering business. He has a coded welder come in to do work for him on a regular basis and he would be more than capable of Tig welding it all together. To say he was good would be an understatement!

Our club boiler inspectors say they would not have a problem testing it so long as material certs were provided and copies of the welders qualifications etc.

John

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Thats one of the grey areas, by paying for it are you paying (a Professional) for a boiler or a service?

You would also need to check who holds the codes for that welder, I think most are actually held by the employer and only an independant welder whould have his own codes and insurance. Though it sounds like this welder may have his own codes. Maybe Fizzy can confirm. Also he would need to have the correct codes for this type of work I don't think someone coded for say structural steel will be coded for a pressure vestle

These two facts make it a bit iffy to say the welds don't need checking as they have been done by a coded welder, better idea would be to pay the little bit extra and have the welds tested and present these test certs to the boiler inspector.

CE only applies when a product is sold, as you have not bought a complete boiler CE will not apply.

J

[John BaguleyParticipant @johnbaguley78655]

Thanks Jason,

That's all useful to know. We'll look into all of it before going ahead.

I would imagine the guy has his own codes as he does work for a lot of companies, often stuff that other welders won't/can't touch due to lack of expertise.

John

[Mark CParticipant @markc]

It's interesting reading the comments about coding and experience etc. About 25 years ago I was lucky to be on a visit to Compare in Cornwall and see the robotic welding station welding up the seam joints (the long one up the side), I wonder if it was coded as it was not having its welds 100% inspected but the receivers did all get a test cert.

Mark

[nigel jones 5Participant @nigeljones5]

John/Jason – Going by my understanding you are NOT allowed to pay someone to weld the boiler as by doing so it is then deemed a professional job and the insurance company wont touch you – mad though this is! The codes always have the welders name on them, the company might have paid for them and own them but they are named individuals. I don't know if your inspector will allow an NDT cert – mine does as he knows my history of being a welder and so this is realy just a formality to satisfy the book, but don't be surprised if a different inspector takes a different view, especially an egotistical pillock who knows nowt about boiler making, and believe me, there are lots of them around! If its copper my choice would be SIFSILCOPPER NO 7. Remember what I said about amps though – it saps heat like nothing else! I wouldn't tig the tubes either, I solder them so I can remove them easier. And run the redesign by your inspector first.

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Some how don't think my Son would charge me.

Plus it's his Loco as well but i do most of the Work.

Suprised as only wanted to know grade of Rods so i can have for when he is back of Holiday

[nigel jones 5Participant @nigeljones5]

Ron _ I was answering a question above, not suggesting you would have to pay!! that SIFSILCOPPER NO 7 is the grade of rod – but be warned, they are not cheap!

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Not sure if silver solder would be a lot more !!

I like the Idea of Tig as at any time you can reweld not like Silver Solder.

Plus like the idea of my son doing the hard bit !!!

Ron

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

it is perhaps unfortunate that Ron's request for help hasnt had a more positive result apart from Fizzy. all Ron is seeking to do is buy in advance the rods required for his very experienced TIG welding son to do the necessary. from what i understand Ron's son has all the necessary qualifications and experience to satisfy Ron's club boiler inspector.

im not a fan of TIG welded boilers, and Fizzy's comments regarding need for deoxidised copper are essential, plus strict adherence to whatever the club boiler inspector may require as the job progresses.

cheers,

julian

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Hi Julian thank you for your comment i am glad you understand.

I had agreed with club i would take it in at every stage to be checked.

After tonight i have decided on this boiler to Gas weld.

I am hoping to start soon a 7 1/4 i will then use a steel boiler.

I am thinking of building a K4 finally found my dad's Loco and would love to build one in his memory.

I used to go on the foot plate regular from around 5 years old.

It looks like a nice tender engine if i had known which one before i started the Simplex i would have defiantly built that one.

Your word's ring in my ears build one you really want but did not know till today witch one it was long time ago.

Would love to find other Loco they used it was a lot bigger and dreadful with a heavy load i remember big plates on front just kept spinning wheels to get going.

It was more like an express and may have been.

Sure in time i will find out as i learn more.

Are you going to the Warwick show next month Julian.

Thank you again Julian

Ron

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

Posted by julian atkins on 20/09/2014 22:06:41:

it is perhaps unfortunate that Ron's request for help hasnt had a more positive result apart from Fizzy. all Ron is seeking to do is buy in advance the rods required for his very experienced TIG welding son to do the necessary. from what i understand Ron's son has all the necessary qualifications and experience to satisfy Ron's club boiler inspector.

im not a fan of TIG welded boilers, and Fizzy's comments regarding need for deoxidised copper are essential, plus strict adherence to whatever the club boiler inspector may require as the job progresses.

cheers,

julian

The negative posts were quite frankly typical of some of the fairly bonkers posts that are made on here.

[VicParticipant @vic]

Posted by Carl Wilson 4 on 21/09/2014 06:28:17:

The negative posts were quite frankly typical of some of the fairly bonkers posts that are made on here.

Agreed Carl. It's a shame but some folks seem to get pleasure by deriding others.

An apology or two normally smooths these things over but are not often forthcoming.

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

I have no problem with TIG welding and would be fine if the correct materials and filler rods are used be it copper or steel. OK there are some rules to follow if intend to run an engine in a public area but not insurmountable.

Negative comments are usually by people that do not understand the process or just too set in their ways. Just because something has been done in a particular way does not mean that it is the only way or the best, it's called progress.

Bob

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

" The negative posts were quite frankly typical of some of the fairly bonkers posts that are made on here. "

Yes and the ultimate negativity is the refusal of an insurance certificate for what "Seemed like a good idea at the time". Better to warn of the Cons rather than be glassy eyed at the Pros. By far the greatest profit in the case of litigation doesn't go to the injured parties but does come out of the pocket of the offender.

Ultimately, the original poster weighs any advise freely given by all parties and makes his own decision.

 

Regards Ian.

Edited By Circlip on 21/09/2014 11:37:51

[Chris PickardParticipant @chrispickard93756]

HI Ron,

To answer your original question…..all welding consumables as fizzy quite rightly says are specific to the material being welded…ie you would need to know the grade of carbon steel , if this was the material being used…to be certain on the correct wire or welding rod to be used…whether this is to be welded by Tig, mma or gas or mig….Even professional pressure vessel and pipework companies fall foul of incorrect spec of welding wire…so many times this happens…

Welding codes are specific to the named person…(no use to the company without the welder named)….material / thickness and welding process, together with the position the test piece was welded…as quite rightly stated above a structural welder on plate steel may not be qualified to weld a vessel..ie boiler depending on the code he is tested for…..to be honest any welded who is not qualified to at least asme ix or en 287-1 would not have the qualification to weld a pressure vessel…also codes are only vaild for 6months…having to be stamped up so as to keep current and then verified by a insurance surveyor every 2 yrs…

to keep your codes valid you need to show that your work is to a coded standard and supply test pieces and volumetric samples to prove that you can 'cut the mustard'………most of my work is 100% tested so i am constantly under the scope to insure the welds conform…..(Tested work in progress makes up the test pieces)……….Each material, thickness , process requires another test…i have 30 plus codings at anyone time to cover a wide range of processes, materials and thicknesses and welding positions….to cover a wide range of jobs…

Even if you do decide to use Gas welding as your preferred method…the person welding …should be coded and show that he/she can produce a weld to a given standard……..Also it would be a good idea as jason suggested to atleast have the welds Ndt tested by a independent company, so as to verify that they are sound and certificated for your boiler inspector…

If you need any help with choice of materials or processes /ndt inspections then please drop me a line…

kind regards

chris

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

hi chris,

Ron has already purchased the copper for his Super Simplex boiler and rather than silver solder up the main structural joints has the option of his very experienced and qualified son to TIG weld up the main joints for him.

i am rather surprised that no one but Nigel (Fizzy) has provided any suitable helpful advice re suitable TIG welding copper rods etc.

cheers,

julian

[nigel jones 5Participant @nigeljones5]

Carl – vic…sorry but you clearly have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about! I offered help and advice, nothing more, and it is very valid advice. You don't believe me, then try for yourself! I was told that I couldn't do it, and on proving people wrong they respectfully changed their opinion, but unless you both have tried this route I suggest your opinions are ill informed! I am no armchair pundit and will only ever try to help others, but sometimes truth is what matters. Please vindicate yourselves by sharing with us the boilers you have completed?

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by julian atkins on 29/09/2014 23:59:28:

i am rather surprised that no one but Nigel (Fizzy) has provided any suitable helpful advice re suitable TIG welding copper rods etc.

julian

I would have thought that there are very few members of this forum who have any practical experience of tig welding copper so hardly surprising there was not a flood of suggested rods.

J

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