Spot the fake

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Dave Halford on 16/01/2018 20:36:53:

The Cannon are fibre glass so some of it is fake.

And all the wood has been replaced at least once.

The Rocket displayed in the Science Museum is not as it ran at Rainhill. Note the angle of the cylinders in the Wikipedia photo of the original:

Compared with the replica which has them in the original configuration:

The original is less realistic than the replica. Truth is they're both wrong and they're both right. Confusing or what?

Dave

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 16/01/2018 20:58:46

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

it makes me wonder how many of the believed/alleged 'genuine' cars have their original cranks, pistons, wheels, bodywork, etc. Just watch when one gets stuffed into the bank at Goodwood and see how much is left in a straight untouched condition.

My point was that the line is not a clear one, there are a lot of blurred distinctions and not a few outright frauds out there, not all of them sold cheap on x-bay.

Cheers, Tim

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by Chris Trice on 16/01/2018 19:55:42:

 

Re: The E Types. I think most people will consider these cars as pretenders even with a number (and nothing else) that was written on a piece of paper fifty years ago unless you want to argue the vehicles existed the moment the number was written down (which they patently didn't). It's an interesting technical exercise and Jaguar would find a market for them in their own right but I agree about them not qualifying for classic/vintage/veteran status. They are brand new cars given old chassis numbers.

 

 

 

 

Sorry Chris, but the facts do not support this.

Jaguar still have 86 original build ledgers in their archives from the period covering 1931 to 1983, and the chassis numbers for the unbuilt cars from 1963 are in there. They didn't just scribble them on a piece of paper.

You may not think they qualify for classic/vintage/veteran status, but the FIA do.

Wind forward to 2016. I ordered a brand new Ford Focus. It was given a VIN and build numbers before any work was done to build the car. Exactly the same procedure as the lightweight E Types.

Did my car exist when the VIN/build numbers were given to that? No.

Was there anything the matter with that? No.

What is an acceptable time limit between giving a vehicle a build/chassis number and physically building it? Who can say.

The lightweight E Types were subjected to an interrupted build process. Extreme, I grant you, but as simple as that.

 

Edited By David Standing 1 on 16/01/2018 21:22:21

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 16/01/2018 20:57:02:

Posted by Dave Halford on 16/01/2018 20:36:53:

The Cannon are fibre glass so some of it is fake.

And all the wood has been replaced at least once.

The Rocket displayed in the Science Museum is not as it ran at Rainhill. Note the angle of the cylinders in the Wikipedia photo of the original:

Compared with the replica which has them in the original configuration:

The original is less realistic than the replica. Truth is they're both wrong and they're both right. Confusing or what?

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 16/01/2018 20:58:46

Dave

This analogy does not fit Jaguar's view of the continuation E Types.

Their view is that a replica is a copy of something belonging to someone else. Since they have copied nothing, the continuation cars are not replicas.

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by Tim Stevens on 16/01/2018 21:13:07:

it makes me wonder how many of the believed/alleged 'genuine' cars have their original cranks, pistons, wheels, bodywork, etc. Just watch when one gets stuffed into the bank at Goodwood and see how much is left in a straight untouched condition.

Cheers, Tim

Trigger's broom.

I forget what the oldest running car is still in existence, probably around 1898. The vast majority of older cars built since then will naturally have replacement parts in them.

Replacing parts of an original car, however, is not the same issue as faking or building 'replicas', if it is essentially the same car as originally built.

Tying this into the aircraft thread, there are many Spitfires flying today that are rebuilt from what remained of crashed planes in period, of which nothing much was salvaged apart from serial numbers. What are they? Fakes? Replicas?

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

The truth is there are no right answers.

The preservation vs. restoration debate is a good example of this.

On cars

Personally, I don't think a mid-sized car made by BMW is a 'Mini' even if it says 'Cooper' on it, has white stripes on the bonnet and is actually a very good car. If it followed the original design philosophy with modern enhancements I might think differently.

I am happy to accept one of the Brazilian-built Beetles as the 'real thing', certainly more genuine than a modern Volkswagen 'version'.

As for the E-Types. Not only are Jaguar the original manufacturer, the cars are essentially built to the original design. The chassis numbers are a distraction, but no-one is being fooled that these are fifty year old classics, they are new production of an old design and no doubt roundly superior to the originals. But I feel they are E-type jags, just as Tornado is a 'real' A1 loco.

The Rocket is a good example. That in the Science Museum is the 'real' Rocket, albeit much modified from its original condition. The replica is, to my mind, a modern continuation of the original production – a 'Rocket-class' loco, if you will.

Another example is the F1A engine used on the Saturn V rocket. A hugely effective design, it has been resurrected as the F1B using modern manufacturing techniques.

Neil

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by David Standing 1 on 16/01/2018 21:30:51:

Posted by Tim Stevens on 16/01/2018 21:13:07:

it makes me wonder how many of the believed/alleged 'genuine' cars have their original cranks, pistons, wheels, bodywork, etc. Just watch when one gets stuffed into the bank at Goodwood and see how much is left in a straight untouched condition.

Cheers, Tim

Trigger's broom.

I forget what the oldest running car is still in existence, probably around 1898. The vast majority of older cars built since then will naturally have replacement parts in them.

Replacing parts of an original car, however, is not the same issue as faking or building 'replicas', if it is essentially the same car as originally built.

Tying this into the aircraft thread, there are many Spitfires flying today that are rebuilt from what remained of crashed planes in period, of which nothing much was salvaged apart from serial numbers. What are they? Fakes? Replicas?

In essence they're what the motor trade would call a 'cut & shut'.

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

You may not think they qualify for classic/vintage/veteran status, but the FIA do.

Their "value" as historic motor cars will be defined by their market value. I suspect collectors of "classic" British racing cars will prefer one with a history of actually competing rather than one built fifty years later, desirable in its own right as it may be.

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by Chris Trice on 17/01/2018 00:03:01:

You may not think they qualify for classic/vintage/veteran status, but the FIA do.

Their "value" as historic motor cars will be defined by their market value. I suspect collectors of "classic" British racing cars will prefer one with a history of actually competing rather than one built fifty years later, desirable in its own right as it may be.

Well yes, one of the original 12 lightweights sold in the USA via Bonhams in Jan 2017 for £6 million, the six continuation lightweights only cost around £1.2 million new. So I guess you are right, but it is pretty academic really at those values!

But, all of the six continuation cars are going to be used in competition, so in time they will gain their own competition histories, and the gap will probably narrow.

Only 18 made in total, supply and demand, prices of both will probably always remain strong.

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Would a Myford 7 lathe manufactured as of today, be classed as a fake, considering that it would be produced in a different location and by a different workforce using different machinery?

Martin.

[Martin 100Participant @martin100]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 16/01/2018 22:01:22:

Personally, I don't think a mid-sized car made by BMW is a 'Mini' even if it says 'Cooper' on it, has white stripes on the bonnet and is actually a very good car. If it followed the original design philosophy with modern enhancements I might think differently.

Well the Countryman is now larger iirc than an Austin Maxi, but a Countryman is also way bigger than a 2 door modern Mini. An original just looks ridiculously small but then so do most 'old' cars.

Issigonis held the same view on the bulk of the modern reincarnation, what he forgot is people are larger than they were in 1959, they now demand safety systems, they demand crumple zones and designing something that in a minor crash will rearrange your customers face on the steering wheel and legs with the gearbox and engine coming through the bulkhead is deemed really bad practice. Any high speed off-road excursion would nearly always require a body bag. In competition on circuits even with the benefit of full FIA approved rollcages, 6 point harnesses and high back seats there have sadly been fatalities.

You can now use a full tank of fuel, 400 miles or so at near 50mpg at 70mph on petrol with nothing more than a toilet break in the modern version, the original was never anything but a city car, 50 miles on a dual carriageway at 70mph in an 850 flat out even with a load of soundproofing in midsummer would leave you deaf, sweaty and exhausted, 10 miles on a twisty road would put a smile on your face, 300 miles in a day would often require back surgery, been there done that got the t-shirt.

The door pockets on the original with sliding windows and the rope door catch release could accommodate iirc four bottles of gin each side, the modern one really struggles with a bag of loose change and a few throat lozenges, but then again it's now significantly more than a sheet of cardboard covered in vinyl, and a door skin 60 thou thick between you and the outside world.

[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

In the mid 70's the Daily Express ran a competition to find the oldest Mini on the road. Mum's September 1959 Morris Mini came second to the one that won the competition (First month of production) and ended up in a museum…

Mum's one still had the original engine. The museum one had a replacement.

[vintagengineerParticipant @vintagengineer]

The 6 continuation cars are not allowed to compete in a lot of classic races and are banned from Goodwood as they are brand new cars and cannot be likened to the original ones. They have been made using better quality materials, to a higher standard and the engines are far more powerful than the origanal ones.

Also there were 13 original cars, the 13th one was made up using the spare bodyshell and the spares sold off by Jaguar in the early 1980's.

Posted by David Standing 1 on 17/01/2018 00:17:06:

Posted by Chris Trice on 17/01/2018 00:03:01:

You may not think they qualify for classic/vintage/veteran status, but the FIA do.

Their "value" as historic motor cars will be defined by their market value. I suspect collectors of "classic" British racing cars will prefer one with a history of actually competing rather than one built fifty years later, desirable in its own right as it may be.

Well yes, one of the original 12 lightweights sold in the USA via Bonhams in Jan 2017 for £6 million, the six continuation lightweights only cost around £1.2 million new. So I guess you are right, but it is pretty academic really at those values!

But, all of the six continuation cars are going to be used in competition, so in time they will gain their own competition histories, and the gap will probably narrow.

Only 18 made in total, supply and demand, prices of both will probably always remain strong.

[vintagengineerParticipant @vintagengineer]

Most of the cars stuffed in racing are repaired correctly using traditional panel beating skills and straightening out the crumpled panels. One of the lightweight e types was completely written off with only one straight panel. It has been totally restored using all the original panels and cost about £1 million pounds to restore but is now worth about £5 million!

Posted by Tim Stevens on 16/01/2018 21:13:07:

it makes me wonder how many of the believed/alleged 'genuine' cars have their original cranks, pistons, wheels, bodywork, etc. Just watch when one gets stuffed into the bank at Goodwood and see how much is left in a straight untouched condition.

My point was that the line is not a clear one, there are a lot of blurred distinctions and not a few outright frauds out there, not all of them sold cheap on x-bay.

Cheers, Tim

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Martin 100 on 17/01/2018 00:22:52:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 16/01/2018 22:01:22:

Personally, I don't think a mid-sized car made by BMW is a 'Mini' even if it says 'Cooper' on it, has white stripes on the bonnet and is actually a very good car. If it followed the original design philosophy with modern enhancements I might think differently.

Well the Countryman is now larger iirc than an Austin Maxi, but a Countryman is also way bigger than a 2 door modern Mini. An original just looks ridiculously small but then so do most 'old' cars.

Issigonis held the same view on the bulk of the modern reincarnation, what he forgot is people are larger than they were in 1959, they now demand safety systems, they demand crumple zones and designing something that in a minor crash will rearrange your customers face on the steering wheel and legs with the gearbox and engine coming through the bulkhead is deemed really bad practice. Any high speed off-road excursion would nearly always require a body bag. In competition on circuits even with the benefit of full FIA approved rollcages, 6 point harnesses and high back seats there have sadly been fatalities.

You can now use a full tank of fuel, 400 miles or so at near 50mpg at 70mph on petrol with nothing more than a toilet break in the modern version, the original was never anything but a city car, 50 miles on a dual carriageway at 70mph in an 850 flat out even with a load of soundproofing in midsummer would leave you deaf, sweaty and exhausted, 10 miles on a twisty road would put a smile on your face, 300 miles in a day would often require back surgery, been there done that got the t-shirt.

The door pockets on the original with sliding windows and the rope door catch release could accommodate iirc four bottles of gin each side, the modern one really struggles with a bag of loose change and a few throat lozenges, but then again it's now significantly more than a sheet of cardboard covered in vinyl, and a door skin 60 thou thick between you and the outside world.

All fair points, but that is why the 'Mini' name is now a marque, not a design. Like the Fiat 500…

I learnt to drive in a mini

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Mark Rand on 17/01/2018 00:31:22:

In the mid 70's the Daily Express ran a competition to find the oldest Mini on the road. Mum's September 1959 Morris Mini came second to the one that won the competition (First month of production) and ended up in a museum…

Mum's one still had the original engine. The museum one had a replacement.

How things change – these days there's nothing remarkable about a 18 or 20 year old car still on the road.

Neil

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 16/01/2018 22:01:22:

The truth is there are no right answers.

The preservation vs. restoration debate is a good example of this.

On cars

Personally, I don't think a mid-sized car made by BMW is a 'Mini' even if it says 'Cooper' on it, has white stripes on the bonnet and is actually a very good car. If it followed the original design philosophy with modern enhancements I might think differently.

I am happy to accept one of the Brazilian-built Beetles as the 'real thing', certainly more genuine than a modern Volkswagen 'version'.

…

Neil

Absolutely right on both counts. Both cars are marketing-driven projects intended to capitalise on the cultural values associated with iconic originals.

They're therefore fakes, and bad ones.

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

Posted by Mick B1 on 17/01/2018 09:34:22:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 16/01/2018 22:01:22:

The truth is there are no right answers.

Absolutely right on both counts. Both cars are marketing-driven projects intended to capitalise on the cultural values associated with iconic originals.

They're therefore fakes, and bad ones.

They are definitely not fakes!

I thought fakes were only fakes when they were copies of the original being passed off as genuine.

Ian P

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

The cars that are built to stir memories of iconic originals certainly work. Of all the cars on the road you do not need to read the badge on the MINI the Fiat 500 or new beetle to know what you are looking at. Although the originals of these 3 cars are remembered fondly by those who drove them they are surpassed in every department by the new versions. The size has grown significantly but much of that has to do with our expectations of surviving a crash. The bodyshell of a modern car is very heavy so requires more power to give expected performance. If you put an original 850 mini engine in a modern MINI it would struggle to get it off your drive. There must be as much difference between an old and new MINI as there is between a pole lathe and a Haas machining centre. They are both of their time so how can they be compared?

Mike

[nigel jones 5Participant @nigeljones5]

Original Mini around 600kg, new mini around 1500kg. We used to race mini's, I wonder what it weighed with just a bare shell, lightened engine and a cage and seat? Not much im guessing. When we retired the car we burried it (money wasnt a problem back then!) in the grounds of the house, I bet whats left of it is still there!

[Martin 100Participant @martin100]

Posted by fizzy on 19/01/2018 12:14:34:

Original Mini around 600kg, new mini around 1500kg. We used to race mini's, I wonder what it weighed with just a bare shell, lightened engine and a cage and seat? Not much im guessing.

660kg and 680kg are now the minimums for the two main original Mini classes in the UK (with a maximum of 25kg of ballast)

**LINK**

1000kg and 1125kg for the modern classes, the former based on the R50 2001-2005 model and the latter on the most recent version the F56 from 2014 onwards.

**LINK**

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

Not so fond memories of having to drive regularly distances of 300 miles or more in a Minivan during the 70’s, I now suffer from chronic back problems, that and long journeys in land rovers certainly contributed to my current back problems. Most comfortable car I owned then was a 1200 beetle, seats were really comfortable and heating system in winter was brilliant, definitely modern cars are a world apart from those times.

Dave W

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Although modern cars are very heavy compared to the old ones weight saving is very much on the mind of the designers. High strength steel and laser welded blanks of different thickness material save a few vital grams in the weight saving quest.

Mike

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

The thing about the current Mini and Beetle is that they’re technically quite ordinary modern cars whose only distinguishing characteristics are stylistic, with none of the engineering innovation so effectively demonstrated by the originals.

That’s what’s fake.

[Author]

Posts