Some big tools

[GeorgineerParticipant @georgineer]

Posted by roy entwistle on 22/01/2019 12:00:49:

I seem to remember when everybody was getting solar hot water, You never see it now

Roy

I had solar hot water installed. I sincerely wish that I had left the money in the bank.

George

[JssParticipant @jss]

Posted by Phil Whitley on 21/01/2019 20:55:25:

Colin, well maybe 1KW would be enough for a venezuelan consumer, but without getting into KvA, most UK consumers, whose incoming cutout is fused at 100amps have almost 21KW available. which sounds like a lot till you consider that some electric showers are 10KW!

1kW per household is not far off if taken for a large enough number of houses. The population of Goole is around 20,000. Google tells me that the average occupancy for England is 2.4 per household. That makes for about 8,300 households. Last time I checked maximum demand in Goole was about 10MW if you removed all the industry, but that still included commercial load, shops etc. (I also used to work for YEB/YEDL/NorthernPowerGrid.)

Let's not have any cheap shots about Goole, please. I don't live there but it's not as bad popular opinion would have you believe.

John.

[Gray62Participant @gray62]

Posted by RMA on 22/01/2019 11:48:42:

I

I have refused a Smart Meter in the UK, again the only advantage is for the company. I don't think it's compulsory here, but if you want to change supplier, most will require you to have one fitted as part of the deal. Change supplier again and your meter may not work with the new supplier! In the UK they cost you money to run as well. The whole UK power industry is in such a mess and will continue to be when most of the industry is foreign owned!

Not an entirely factual statement.

True it is not compulsory to have a smart meter.

Some suppliers are offering incentivised deals which require having a smart meter to take advantage of lower energy costs however, they must also offer packages which do NOT require installation of smart meters. If they didn't do this they would effectively make smart meters compulsory, OFGEM would be all over them like a rash!

Depending on the meter type you can switch supplier and move the meter with you (applies to SMETS 2 meters, SMETS 1 meters cannot be transferred between suppliers.

Smart meters do NOT cost you money to run, as with any electronic/digital electricity meter, the meter is powered from the incoming supply, therefore the cost of running the meter is born by the energy supplier (alright, they may well 'hide' this cost within the cost of your energy but they'll never admit to that) but there is no additional cost to the consumer to switch from a heritage meter to a smart meter.

'The only advantage is for the company' – I cannot agree with that statement, after having my meters installed, being able to view my energy usage and usage history allowed me to easily experiment with how my heating was timed to turn on and off and optimise my gas usage. Additionally, I was able to prove to SWMBO that the workshop didn't actually contribute to the major part of our energy consumption – BIG WIN.

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

EDF have just contacted by email with the fact that my consumption is down by 6% from last year. Whoopee.

I live alone and have always switched off lights and often walk about without lights as enough comes through the windows to read by!

I have hardly used any machinery at all for a while.

Clive

[RMAParticipant @rma]

Thanks for the heads up on compulsory. I'm in the process of changing suppliers right now and I've not seen the small print regarding optional, I'll now look for it, although from what you are saying, the rate probably isn't their lowest, which is what I'd be looking for. However you dress it up, they are compulsory if you want the best rate.

British Gas are persistent in trying to get a smart meter installed. Presumably this runs on electricity, so where is that powered from? The meter is a long way from my electricity supply, so I guess it would be into the nearest socket…so I would be paying. I remember Martin Lewis warned of this cost when they were first being introduced. I keep refusing because I know when I want my heating to come on, and there are no time differential rates as far as I know, unlike Economy 7 for electricity.

Like I said, the whole industry is a mess and totally confusing for most to compare for the best deals.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

One aspect of smart meters that has not been mentioned is that they have contactors fitted internally. This means that the supplier can disconnect the supply remotely. While there are currently restrictions on when they can disconnect, these may change. Another use for the contactors is rolling black-outs during times of energy shortage. individual disconnecton makes this easier and consumers with special needs can be excluded from the black out.

The high cost of buliding nuclear power plants is mostly due to regulation and administration. Interestingly the cost of building Hinkley C is about the same as building an off-shore wind farm of similar capacity. The rub is that the windfarm has only half the working lifetime. Modern reactor designs take more account of de-commissioning reducing costs. No one has de-commissioned a large off-shore wind farm yet.

Robert G8RPI.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Colin Heseltine on 22/01/2019 10:24:48:

I was offered a SmartMeter. They rang to make appointment. I said you know I have 3-phase don’t you. Yes they said. You have 3-phase smartmeters. NO they said.

Oh well. Keep waiting.

Colin

They can't even cope with Economy 7.

Neil

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

JSS, assuming your figures are correct, you have shown what the maximum DEMAND is, in other words, the maximum amount of power Goole requires on average, should that demand rise for any reason, there has to be available generation to come online to meet whatever the demand is. As I said, without getting into KVa etc each consumer with a 100amp cutout fuse has the potential to draw about 20kw. Whilst most do not, there has to be some extra capacity available should they decide to install one of those lovely 10KW electric showers!

Robert Atkinson 2, good point on the internal disconnect, I forgot to mention that! Can't agree with you on Hinkley though. EDF have 7 of these plants under construction in Europe, none are completed or have produced a single watt to the grid as yet, and the one nearest to completion is massively over budget, 7 years overdue (I think) and no one at EDF will give an estimate of how much it will cost to complete, or when this will happen! If you look at the wind capacity we have now, and then at the wind capacity in the pipeline, there are no worries for the future, and wind is much cheaper per installed MW, and also sells into the market at a price very close to the Nuclear plants, although due to a deal from the 1950s whereby every watt the nukes produce has to be bought by the grid before any other form of generation is used, nuclear is effectively subsidised. Even if Hinkley is ever completed and works, which there is some doubt about, it will be a massive white elephant, as by that time there will be so much wind available, and it will be so cheap, that its business model should not work, except for the "buy every watt from nuclear first" deal, which will tie further generations into paying through the nose for it. what is the point of building the most expensive way of boiling water on the planet, when demand is falling? There simply isn't one, that is why they are all pulling out. Hinkley should be scrapped now, before it is too late. I have also commented in a debate on this subject in "The Engineer" Magazine. https://www.theengineer.co.uk/poll-hitachi-nuclear/?cmpid=tenews_7215703&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&utm_campaign=tenews&adg=29A12ECE-5998-4C6E-905C-CB9F5E77B93B

Phil

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

I had a smart meter installed out of curiosity mainly. It’s fairly surprising what all the devices that are in their standby condition actually consume. I suspect that solar panels that could cover my background demand would make a significant saving on my bill even though only during the daylight hours unless I had a battery setup.

Mike

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

Had solar panels installed on 12th December and already noticing a difference in our monthly consumption compared to this time last year. Our system will generate 4 kw under ideal conditions; our roof faces South and we are on the Sussex coast so ideally situated for maximum output, since installation we have only had midwinter sunshine but yesterday, a quite sunny day here, we generated 12.5 kw/hours and the bonus is that being retired both wife and I are home during the hours of sunlight so able to switch on washing machine/ tumble dryer and dishwasher etc at times when we can use the free solar generated units. Waiting to see how much our system will generate on sunny summer days. In respect of Smart Meters I will resist having one fitted for as long as possible, can not see any advantage for me as consumer it only benefits the supplier. When the engineer fitted our solar panels he asked whether we had a Smart Meter fitted, we said no and he said don’t because apparently it is possible to detect with it how much solar that your system exports to the grid, so in the future instead of being credited with an export payment of 50% of your generated units it will be possible to pay for only the actual amount exported to the grid, as we are currently using far more than 50% of our generated solar (which is free) that arrangement certainly wouldn’t benefit us. For those who query the payment of 50% of generated units deemed as exported to the grid this figure applies to all domestic solar generation as it is not economical for export meters to be fitted to domestic systems.

Dave W

[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

Just a few little points:-

1. It's Hinkley Point C, not Hinkley.
2. An average consumption of 1kW per household is not unreasonable for many parts of the world. Arguing about peak consumption for a base load plant is pissing in the wind.
3. The reactors chosen for Hinkley Point C were a completely unproven design when the order was placed and unlikely to be an economic choice. A repeat of Sizewell B (for which the regulatory case had been made) using a number of the ex-Westinghouse SNUPPS reactors, possibly coupled with GEC/Alstom/GE Arabelle half speed turbines, would have been far cheaper even though Wendyhouse no-longer exist.
4. Wind flutters about all over the place in an island the size of the UK. Sunlight is somewhat predictable, but still rather varied. Nuclear is base load and very good for it. CCGT, nowadays is baseload plus peak lopping. Those used to be the province of oil, but CCGTs are lower capital cost, more responsive and more efficient (albeit shorter operating life).
5. I have two GEC Meters (St Leonards works, Stafford) meters in my house. One belongs to the electric company and the other belongs to me. My one monitors the shed's electric usage. Data from these is fed into a spreadsheet when I remember to take the readings. They show that my shed (with continuous A/C-heat pump) consumes an average of 400W and the rest of the house (including SWMBO's pottery kiln) uses 950W.
6. One reason that France has had the cheapest electricity in Western Europe for the past 40 years is that they invested in large numbers of essentially identical nuclear reactors. They have been exporting 2GW of cheap power to us for the last three decades…
7. Back on the original topic. I thought '230MW, surely isn't the biggest?'. But then realised that the video was talking about Kaplan turbines. These tend to get used in low head applications. By way of comparrison, the Francis turbines in the Dinorwig pumped storage scheme, which run at 400m of head are rated at 330MW each and were built in the late 1970's/early 1980's.
8. Edit to add:- A replacement rotary meter and a smart meter will not record exported power as a reduction in total consumption. In the former case because of a mechanical ratchet and in the latter case due to software. The electric company regards such exports as 'theft' but it's just 'borrowing' really! I don't have PV on top of the shed at the moment. But this, added to the ability to turn off my supply without access to the property and the fact that I can already monitor my consumption are the reasons that I've indicated that I don't feel the need for a smart meter.

Sorry. Couldn't help blathering on. Worked on the Dinorwig generators at GEC Machines in 1979-1981 and worked for GEC Steam Turbines and its successors until 2016.

Edited By Mark Rand on 22/01/2019 23:15:24

Edited By Mark Rand on 22/01/2019 23:22:18

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Samsaranda on 22/01/2019 22:33:09:

switch on washing machine/ tumble dryer and dishwasher etc at times when we can use the free solar generated units.

If you use them at night on grid electricity you will (at least for a while) make a profit from the feed in tariff.

This may sound crazy, but in practice it's how it's meant to work – increasing the base load at night when there is over-capacity and increasing the renewables available to meet demand in the day.

Neil

[HowiParticipant @howi]

gas smnart meters do NOT plug into the mains supply, they have a long life 9v battery inside as do water meters.

[HowiParticipant @howi]

gas smart meters do NOT plug into the mains supply, they have a long life 9v battery inside as do water meters.

Edited By Howi on 23/01/2019 09:30:08

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

Neil, All units generated by solar are recorded by your generation meter and you are paid via the feed in tariff for all those units, once units have been generated you are free to use as many of those as you want, they are free at no cost. You will also be paid as well as your feed in tariff for those units for units exported to the grid (I.e. those you haven’t used) but as those units aren’t recorded (export meters not fitted to domestic installations) everyone gets 50% of the total units generated as an export payment. We have an off peak tariff with our energy supplier so we could use off peak units at night for the major appliances but it doesn’t make sense as we have free solar generated units available to use during the daylight hours and as we are retired we are here during the day to use our free solar generated units.

Dave W

[steamdaveParticipant @steamdave]

Posted by Georgineer on 22/01/2019 13:46:19:

Posted by roy entwistle on 22/01/2019 12:00:49:

I seem to remember when everybody was getting solar hot water, You never see it now

Roy

I had solar hot water installed. I sincerely wish that I had left the money in the bank.

George

From an Irish perspective and my age profile, solar water heating is not cost effective. Taking into consideration the cost of installation and the savings, it just doesn't work. Perhaps in a large family which includes teenagers it may be different.

In a household of 2, how much pure hot water is used daily? The hot water normally has to be mixed with cold water to be usable, so take showers x 2, a bit of other cleaning usage, say about 80/90 litres. The installation cost of solar means that I can use a lot oil (no gas available in the stix) to heat that 80 litres. Dishwashers and washing machines which are the main appliances using water seem to be all cold fill anyway. (OK, I'm sure you can prove me wrong).

I'm not interested in the possible increase in value of my property because I will be here until carried out in a box (or plastic bag!)

Dave
The Emerald Isle

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

My neighbour had the answer to this forty years ago. "I want a white meter fitted as they supply cheap electricity".

He also questioned, "If I have a cheap tariff gas supply, How do I know that you're not getting any of my cheap gas through your pipes ? "

Regards Ian.

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

A further extension of our solar project will be a battery incorporated when the price of batteries comes down to a sensible price, that will allow us to store any unused solar units and there is also the facility to top up the battery using off peak energy overnite, then any usage during the day outside of the amount of solar generated would effectively only have been charged at the off peak rate. To take the concept even further as we live in a windy coastal area, a windmill generator located in the side garden could easily give 1 kw every time the wind blows and that could be stored in the battery also. The only problem is that as yet I haven’t run it past the wife, not sure how she would take to the windmill in her garden.

Dave W

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

Just wait until governments tax sunlight.

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

Speedy, I am sure that is on the cards, there must be other candidates for tax as well, perhaps the air we breathe!

Dave W

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Circlip on 23/01/2019 12:23:06:

He also questioned, "If I have a cheap tariff gas supply, How do I know that you're not getting any of my cheap gas through your pipes ? "

Tell him you don't want his cheap gas clogging up your burners and poisoning your family in the dead of night

Neil

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Demand may be falling at the moment but that is set to change with electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids. Wind and solar aare no good for baseload and practical storgae is nowhere in sight. Offshore wind is not cheap.

Robert G8RPI.

[Brian HParticipant @brianh50089]

Shame that much of this has nothing to do with Big Tools!

Brian

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

Posted by Mark Rand on 22/01/2019 23:04:51:

Just a few little points:-

1. It's Hinkley Point C, not Hinkley.
2. An average consumption of 1kW per household is not unreasonable for many parts of the world. Arguing about peak consumption for a base load plant is pissing in the wind.
3. The reactors chosen for Hinkley Point C were a completely unproven design when the order was placed and unlikely to be an economic choice. A repeat of Sizewell B (for which the regulatory case had been made) using a number of the ex-Westinghouse SNUPPS reactors, possibly coupled with GEC/Alstom/GE Arabelle half speed turbines, would have been far cheaper even though Wendyhouse no-longer exist.
4. Wind flutters about all over the place in an island the size of the UK. Sunlight is somewhat predictable, but still rather varied. Nuclear is base load and very good for it. CCGT, nowadays is baseload plus peak lopping. Those used to be the province of oil, but CCGTs are lower capital cost, more responsive and more efficient (albeit shorter operating life).
5. I have two GEC Meters (St Leonards works, Stafford) meters in my house. One belongs to the electric company and the other belongs to me. My one monitors the shed's electric usage. Data from these is fed into a spreadsheet when I remember to take the readings. They show that my shed (with continuous A/C-heat pump) consumes an average of 400W and the rest of the house (including SWMBO's pottery kiln) uses 950W.
6. One reason that France has had the cheapest electricity in Western Europe for the past 40 years is that they invested in large numbers of essentially identical nuclear reactors. They have been exporting 2GW of cheap power to us for the last three decades…

1) Agreed, but a bit pedantic, dont you think? Whatever it is called, an alternative would be "money pit"

2) Not the civilised world, average daily UK consumption is 12kWhr (not my figures) in the USA it is double that.

3) Agreed, never let a government do an engineers job!

4)The UK actually has the best wind patterns for wind generation in Europe. Wind does not "flutter about", especially offshore, it is a product of temperature differential weather systems, and can be predicted with good regularity. It cannot meet the base load yet, but if you look at the offshore capacity under construction and proposed offshore wind farms, it won't be long. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_offshore_wind_farms . As I said, nuclear is base load because it can sell every watt it produces, it says so in its contract!, but it can only produce 24% of peak load, CCGT regularly contributes over 50% of peak load. Wind is now cheaper than nuclear https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41220948 My drive of 6 miles to my workshop 5 days a week (when I can get away with it) passes more than 30 wind turbines, but they are only stationary 1 to 2 days per month, and evn then, never for the whole day.

5) if you add your averages up and multiply by the twelve waking hours, you get 16.2kWhrs, so slightly more than average use. However, assuming your wifes pottery kiln is at least 2kw, and operates on a simmerstat, or the electronic equivalent it will dissipate the full rated wattage until it reaches the set temperature, and then fall back with occasional bursts to maintain the set temperature. The point is not what the average is, it is the fact that generation has to be able to come on line to match the peak loads, and although these peaks are pretty much well known throughout the days, week and seasons, generation must be matched to demand, whatever they demand may be.

6) By " they invested" you mean, "the French government paid for" One of the reasons the French have cheap power is that the French Government backed EDF is using the vast profits it is making in the UK to subsidise the cost per unit in France! At 40 years old I would think that the early ones are coming to the end of their design life, or will be soon. They have not been exporting 2gW of power to us for three decades, this is simply wrong, look at http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/ all the europe interconnects work in both directions, and the direction of power flow changes daily, sometimes hourly.

7) Agreed.

8) agreed

I don't wish to get into arguments, or put anyones nose out of joint, just to correct some of the many misconceptions around renewables and wind epsecially. In the area of East Yorkshire where my workshop is, there are many long supply lines, still many overhead, and it is amazing how the addition of wind turbines direct to grid has reinforced supply, and stopped the lights dipping whenever Farmer Giles grain dryer kicks in! The first pair of turbines I pass provide 154KW direct to a very large potato farm who specialise in seed potatoes, and have large loads consisting of freezers, and much lighting for sprouting of seed potatoes. It has revolutionised their business, they have gone from huge electricity bills to being a net exporter most of their "off peak" season It works!

Edited By Phil Whitley on 23/01/2019 19:07:47

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 23/01/2019 17:00:54:

Demand may be falling at the moment but that is set to change with electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids. Wind and solar aare no good for baseload and practical storgae is nowhere in sight. Offshore wind is not cheap.

Robert G8RPI.

Offshore wind is cheaper than Hinkley point C. See https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41220948 There are two companies willing to build offshore at £57.50 per MWhr, Hinkley point C is subsidised at £92.50 per MWhr!

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