Small horizontal mill – capabilities?

[ell81Participant @ell81]

I have recently purchased a pallas model c milling machine:

Not this exact one, but the same model:

So, I have a spare 1.5kw 3 phase motor I can use for it, or a 900W single.

My question is, what are these machines capable of? Ideally I would like to use it for making things from hard steel such as HSS, tool steet etc.

Basically parts for lathes and milling machines. Is that doable on these?

I have never owned a mill before so, any advice would be more than welcome. Cheers!

[Andrew CrowParticipant @andrewcrow91475]

I think that more information on your motors would be required before anyone would be able to recommend either or neither.

As for cutting hard steel, it would only be possible if the steel was in an annealed or heat treated machinable condition.

You may also need to be more specific on what you are trying to make.

Andy

[ell81]

On 26 April 2025 at 10:27 ell81 Said:

My question is, what are these machines capable of? Ideally I would like to use it for making things from hard steel such as HSS, tool steet etc.

The simple answer is not much. They were most likely intended for simple second operation use.

Small horizontals are very limited in power when using side and face horizontal milling cutters, or insert face mills, and tend not to have the speed range for carbide endmills.

If you want to machine HSS and tool steel it is the wrong machine, you really need a vertical mill with a much higher speed range. It is possible to mill HSS but need carbide cutters run at fairly high speeds so that the shear zone is red hot.

There was a thread on here some while ago (that I can’t find) discussing issues with a similar size mill. The conclusion was that one could run small slitting saws but not anything much bigger.

Julie

[Clive Brown 1Participant @clivebrown1]

Agree with JA. I have a somewhat similar machine, a Zyto. Useful in a quite limited sense, I use mine almost exclusively with slitting saws. A 1/8″ wide saw in mild steel is about its realistic limit. Unless modified, problems will occur with the lowest speed being on the high side for horizontal milling cutters and the drive belts lacking torque capacity. A horizontal milling machine needs real rigidity and grunt.

I’m not really clear about what you need to make from hss etc. You say “parts for lathes and milling machines”, but aren’t these just the cutters themselves? A vertical mill is very much more generally useful in the amateur’s workshop.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

The type of tool that suits people who don’t like rice pudding and own a boat!

In industry they were good at their job however in the home workshop their use is very limited. As Julie says they were used for “2nd ops” that means an operation on a part after the main machining which in this case could have been cutting a small keyway, cutting slots for screwdrivers or possibly with two cutters ganged up would have put a pair of flats on the end of a tap spindle so the handle would not spin. Often used on non ferrous metals so did not need to be too sturdy. They would have been set up to do batches of these 2nd ops and may have only done a single one day in day out so could be worn in a particular spot.

You would probably be best to put it in a corner and save it as a future restoration project and find yourself something a bit more versatile, quicker to change tooling and with a bit more capacity.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Do I detect a lot of “badge engineering” going on?

That machine’s stand is clearly marked ‘Pallas’ but looks very like that for my Denbigh ‘H4’ so far partially restored. The very different colour suggests the stand and machine found each other in later life but are very happily compatible.

Is the mill itself embossed Pallas? (The Denbigh has its name and trademark embossed on both the stand door and on the body of the mill itself.)

The machine itself is nearly identical in appearance save that my Denbigh has its feed-screw under the table centre-line and the knee screw is operated by the more conventional right-angle drive on the knee itself, above the table.

However, Tony Griffith’s site does show the Denbigh ‘H’ series, of which the H4 was the largest and most versatile, was designed with second-operation and small-section machining in mind. It was made for line-shaft drive, as was that Pallas, using flat belts laced after threading through the frame; and running vertically above the mill.

The Pallas’ feed-screw looks like a previous owner’s addition. Some small horizontal mills, including the basic Denbighs, had lever-action feed because they were for light work only, typically batch-production tasks. The H4 though had self-acting feed (missing, or perhaps an option never fully fitted, on mine), but as we see only the left-hand side of this Pallas we don’t know it it was similarly provided.

 

One advantage of gang-milling as Jason describes, with a suitable spacer between two side-and-face cutters, is that when machining polygons on ends of spindles etc. it does not try to rotate the work. This is particularly important if th work is held vertically in a chuck with a screwed backplate, transferred from a lathe to some form of dividing attachment.

 

Provided you accept it is a small machine designed for light cuts at low speeds only, I see no reason why a small horizontal mill can’t still be a useful tool. A vertical mill is undeniably more versatile but there are operations for which the horizontal mill may be the more obvious choice, such as slotting, fluting, keyway- or spline- cutting and gear-cutting.

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Have a look at what you can get at what you can get on ebay to suit the arbor in 3″ or less diameter.

They will be HSS cutters.

If you can find collets to match the arbor taper (hopefully MT2) then you can use it as a stub miller with vertical milling cutters.

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

It could have uses if you already have a mill with a vertical spindle, but very limited on it’s own. Take out the shaft from the spindle and find out whether it has a Morse taper which could hold an er 25 or 32 collet system. That would help.

[Julie AnnParticipant @julieann]

The mill looks remarkably like the Pallas H.O. mill shown on the lathes.co.uk website. The one major difference is that on the website the x-axis is lever feed. In the photo above the x-axis screw feed looks to be a bit of a bodge, for several reasons. I suspect it was added at a later date in an attempt to make the mill more useful outside of a production environment.

There may be some connection between Pallas and Denbigh as both were part of the Elliott group.

Julie

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

The photo is not the one the OP is getting so don’t start drifting too far off track.

Not this exact one, but the same model:

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

As a comparison, the typical Centec horizontal/vertical mills used motors of around 1HP.  The segmented belt, shown in that pic, would likely be stressed with more than a horse power at the relatively low speeds (high torque) of the horizontal spindle?  I think most, or all, Centecs used twin drive belts from the motor?

[PeteParticipant @pete41194]

If yours is complete and with nothing too damaged, it might be a good addition to having a vertical mill. But overall a horizontal mill is much less versatile than a vertical is. And as others have already said, it most definitely isn’t going to be machining any hardened steels or HSS. I highly doubt even a one tonne Bridgeport could do that properly without a very short life for the very expensive and proper cutting tool type.

Check the spindle taper, hopefully there’s no damage or rust pitting at all. Then check any arbors you got with it that there still straight. Any cutting tools tightened on those arbors need to have the outboard end support in place and fully supporting that outboard end of the arbor first or you will put a permanent bend in them. Short stub end arbors are ok to use without that end support, but the main issue with these small horizontals is the limited movement towards or away from the head stock. It’s Z axis. For the correct job, I like having my little Atlas, but I also have a far larger vertical mill. Good condition and still sharp HSS cutting tools for any horizontal mill can be quite expensive unless your lucky and can find something still usable at a reasonable price.

Cutting rpm is also critical and a lot slower than most might think. Even a 3″ diameter HSS cutting tool is only going to have a maximum rpm of around 100 to 120 rpm cutting mild steel. Table feed rates will be a lot faster than with end mills and vertical mills once you start calculating to have at least .002″-.004″ feed per tooth.

 

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Good Morning eii81

 

Everyone seems to be telling you that you shouldn’t have started where you have…but elswhere…

in other words you should have purchased a vertical mill. However (for whatever reason) you have a small horizontal mill as your starting point. So, the advice seems to be that you should sell the Pallas and buy a vertical machine instead – and that may indeed be good advice, depending on what you need to do with it…

However a small Sieg SX2 type machine will cost you upwards of £750-£1000 new and probably not far off that for a good used one. For the work you want to do, you may want something larger. BTW – I make parts/accessories for my machines and use mostly mild steel and cast iron for them. The more important consideration is the size of the intended work I’d suggest…

I have two horizontal mills, simply because they came may way at an affordable price and before the advent of (good) cheap chinese mills. They can both be equipped with vertical heads and in doing so become vertical mills with a knee operated Z axis. The one disadvantage is that neither vertical heads have quills on them. I also operate them with milling tools mounted in the horizontal arbour, which is sometimes perferable to vertical mode (eg end drilling in long work).

So I’d suggest you think carefully about the work you need to do and what size of machine can handle this work (table X-Y traverse and Z height). Check the Pallas for these dimensions and then compare them to the small Siegs and see if the Pallas is the same or better. You then need to decide whether you want to spend the time and money to make the Pallas usable for your need. It will never be capable of very heavy work but then neither will the smaller Siegs…

Here is my Atlas with a home-made (not by me) vertical head (with a MT2 spindle). It’s not perfect but works very well for smaller parts. It is speed limited, so an independant drive to the spindle would be more useful…and I’ve a TUIT to move my Taig milling head over to the Atlas for that use…

By the way, for light milling work, these small Taig/Peatol milling heads are very good value. Mine has an ER16 nose but I’ve just noticed this earlier version on eBay…the ER16 is a better choice but I don’t know if you can still get them here…

Taig (original) Milling Head

 

I’d also check the Pallas spindle set-up. With luck it will be MT2 rather than some obscure taper, which would be a plus as mentioned above…

So, in summary, you have a horizontal machine that needs work to make itself useful. You need to think what you need – to do the work you want to do. Then decide if the Pallas can (be made to) do it or whether it would be better to get a different machine. But do think about how big this new machine needs to be – and whether you can afford and house it?  The Pallas is currently just an XY table (that can be moved in the Z axis) with a pre-fitted vertical column. Is it worth your time and money to get it working? Start at the beginning and work backwards to decide. What do you need it to do?

Regards,

 

IanT

 

 

 

 

[ell81]

On 26 April 2025 at 10:27 ell81 Said:

Ideally I would like to use it for making things from hard steel such as HSS, tool steet etc.

Basically parts for lathes and milling machines. Is that doable on these?

 

I can’t think of any lathe or milling machine parts that need to be made of HSS or tool steel for home hobby use.

What exactly are you wanting to make with this machine?

Cast iron and mild steel will do 99 percent of what you might need to make for a lathe or mill. And medium grade carbon/alloy steel will do the other 1 percent, which is quite machineable with due care.

[IanT]

On IanT Said:

Good Morning eii81

 

 

So I’d suggest you think carefully about the work you need to do …

 

 

IanT

 

 

 

I concur!

ell81 said ‘Ideally I would like to use it for making things from hard steel such as HSS, tool steet etc. Basically parts for lathes and milling machines.‘  Problem is that HSS and Tool Steel don’t machine easily.   These alloys are used to make cutters, and as such are plenty hard enough to resist being cut themselves.   Although HSS and Tool Steel can be machined with Carbide, they both put up a fight.  Hard on the machine, takes forever, and the carbide cutter doesn’t last long.  Look for alternatives, there are two:

• Tool Steel can be softened and re-hardened by heat treatment.  Soften the metal first, then machine it, and finish by re-hardening.  Not as simple as it sounds because heating can cause warping and erosion.  Skilled work requiring a torch, forge and oil tank.  And the uses of Tool-steel are limited – maybe wood-working.  Note HSS can’t be softened and re-hardened because its heat treatment is elaborately specialised.
• Grinding is by far the most common way of shaping hard metal.  If ell81 wants to make cutting tools, he needs a grinder, not a mill. Low volume grinding is done by hand with an ordinary grinding wheel, but lots of precision work calls for a proper grinding machine.

Possibly ell81 is a beginner who’s misunderstood what lathes are made of.  Not HSS or Tool Steel.   Mostly cast-iron, small machines might be Aluminium, with brass, bronze, steel, mazak or plastic components, most of it machinable.  A horizontal mill would only be useful if ell81 needed to mass produce saddles or tool-posts.  Size matters and the pictured Pallas is on the small side for making saddles.  Vertical mills are much more versatile.

I suggest “I bought a horizontal mill, is it useful” is upside down.  Better to define the requirement, asking “I want to make whatsits, what tools and materials do I need?“.   Working to a target saves a lot of bother compared with buying an unsuitable horizontal mill with no motor, especially when motors aren’t understood either!

Whilst impulse buying might be a useful learning experience, it’s likely to be painful and wasteful.

Starting out it may not be obvious where one is going.  But it helps when ideas are reasonably clear; if mending full-size traction engines, don’t buy a mini-lathe!  And clock makers shouldn’t buy monster tools.   A middle of the road beginner can’t go far wrong starting with a lathe about the size of a Myford 7 and a vertical mill of similar capacity.   Years can be wasted buying random gear and trying to sort it out later.

Telling the forum what the job is will get better answers too.

Dave

 

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Although not your specific machine as you said the initial picture is of a mill that is very capable for traditional Model Engineering; that is steam engines and locomotives up to 7 1/4 in gauge. Unfortunately of late a lot of people seem to be intent on making double scale models of the Titanic from billet.

If anyone with such a mill wants a vertical head it might be worth looking at the developments in table top CNC spindles. If you can just hold off the  Titanic for a few days one of these tiny spindles is capable of doing adequate work for clockmakers and enginemakers who are not in a tearing hurry.

[brickyParticipant @bricky]

I have a T&LM stub miller which I bought ,it had been bought at a car boot by a model engineer with no spindel.He cut off the pillar bearings and converted it inro a verticle mill.I used it until I bought an SX3.I dismantle the verticle part and had to make new pillars and spindel.I used roller bearings and made the pulleys for ribbed belts I also made the counter shaft.I made a gear to allow for a lever feed and new clasp nuts.This is a very accurate machine and I use it for trueing blocks of steel before use on the SX3 so that they don’t distort my vice.Don’t wright off your pallas just spend some time renovating it and when funds permit get a verticle mill.

Frank

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Ell81:

Spindle taper:

If that Pallas is pretty much as my Denbigh, as I think, the spindle taper may be MT3, not 2.

I’d also advise examining it carefully to see if it originally had a feed-screw along the underside of the table. That external one does not look right but might replace an original lever-driven feed.

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