Skynet is Coming

[Nick Clarke 3Participant @nickclarke3]

Posted by Anthony Knights on 24/02/2021 14:13:46:

Posted by Frances IoM on 23/02/2021 19:47:40:
No it sounds like a simple PIC processor – they will cost less than your 2 transistors which would probably need a capacitor for timing purposes (the latter being guaranteed not to last 10yrs unless quite expensive. Since you knew what it had to do program your own PIC

Great idea.I'll buy a PIC programmer and teach myself how to program a PIC. I might as well bin my box of electronic components at the same time.

Funny you should say that – I have been given several loads of wire ended resistors, capacitors and semiconductors because two engineer friends have gone totally over to surface mount and i still use the old fashioned stuff on breadboards and Vero.

So yes, they are basically being binned by at least two professionals of my acquaintance!

[Frances IoMParticipant @francesiom58905]

The point I was trying to make is that the cost of these small PIC-like chips are very small + total cost considerably less than any design that requires components that cannot be autoplaced – the ability to use compute power to avoid components such as large value capacitors is another significant cost saving – added to these is the stocking cost of a single component vs many.
Programmers for the PIC series are quite cheap for small quantity use by amateurs – several designs from last maybe 8 or more years in enthusiast magazines have used then to save cct board space – today’s trend is of course to use the small arduinos, the Aussie micromate + now the PiPico as single components within a larger design

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Frances IoM on 24/02/2021 17:42:07:
The point I was trying to make is that the cost of these small PIC-like chips are very small + total cost considerably less than any design that requires components that cannot be autoplaced – the ability to use compute power to avoid components such as large value capacitors is another significant cost saving – added to these is the stocking cost of a single component vs many.
…

And not just small PIC-like chips. Rather powerful microcontrollers are, ahem, cheap as chips. Plus Field Programmable Gate Arrays and similar technologies capable of being mass-produced and told what they are later. As these things cost about the same as a discrete components of the same size and can do much, much more, there's been a rapid move away from discrete components. Many of them are getting difficult to find.

Bring back ECC81s and 6V6s. It's not proper electronics unless it glows in the dark and smells of hot Mullard!

Dave

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

I am totally wired to all the pc's at home and have turned off the wifi as on an estate with dozens of potential hackers within reach, I feel safer.

[Sam StonesParticipant @samstones42903]

Now you’re talking Dave, small glass bottles with fire inside. The ones with carbon anodes were not so small.

They were ‘Pick-n-Place’ too.

You picked the one where the fire had gone out, and put another in its place.

I’d better ‘getter’ out of here quick.

Sam

[Dr. MC BlackParticipant @dr-mcblack73214]

Many years ago, when I was a schoolmaster, a colleague (who taught History) cam up to the lab and explained that his television stopped working while his wife had been watching it – and could we mend it.

After explaining that the department existed to teach boys rather than to mend colleagues electrical equipment (in the same way as the metalwork department did NOT exist to mend staff cars) we had some Vth formers who were helping out around the labs, being "after the exams". These boys could look at the defective set if he wished.

So the Television set was brought to the lab and I told the lads to take it into an empty room. I then told them to leave it for a couple of hours in case there were any high voltages which needed to disperse.

I then told them to remove the back and see if there were any obvious problems.

"There's something like a light bulb that all cracked and crazed"

"That's a valve. They were used before transistors."

I gave them a tray of spare valves. "See if you can find one with the same number as the damaged valve."

So off they went and came back a bit later…..

"We found a valve that fitted"

"Was it the same number?"

"We could NOT see the number, but we found one that fitted in the socket"

I then took them into the lab, plugged the set into the mains and switched on the mains from the master switch on the far side.

Much to my surprise, a clear picture appeared. This was very near the Crystal Palace transmitter so an aerial wasn't needed.

We gave the set back to the owner who was very pleased and said that he would tell his wife NOT to spill coffee on the repaired set

But I was truly amazed that a valve, pulled out of a box at random, should be exactly the sort that was needed.

MC

[Anthony KnightsParticipant @anthonyknights16741]

Valve TV's. Them were the days. A colour set had valves the size of jam jars, mains connected to the chassis, a lethal 25Kv final anode voltage and were a 2 man lift. How we survived without H&S I'll never know.

[ChrisBParticipant @chrisb35596]

What would you say about these new robot vacuum cleaners? Equipped with wifi and lidar, it scans every corner of your apartment, creates a map and uploads it to your mobile…

Door intercomms with remote opeining is today also controlled via mobile app. I had an old video intercom which started acting up, checked the outdoor camera unit maybe there was something loose. I was surprised and shocked to learn that shorting a couple of wires released the door latch!

[10ba12baParticipant @10ba12ba]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 24/02/2021 17:58:56:

Bring back ECC81s and 6V6s. It's not proper electronics unless it glows in the dark and smells of hot Mullard!

Dave

Ha! ! small potaters ! KT 88's were the thing, 1960's/70's power amp stuff. Toast and fried eggs no problems Sir. Would you like 10 Years After or Chicken Shack with that?

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

At the day job I have actually used small PIC microcontrollers in designs were a 555 timer would have don the job. problem is the 555 needed more components and an expensive capacitor to get the required accuracy. overall cost was much higher.
Conversly a few years ago I used transistors and diodes to implement a control system (several inputs and outputs a bit of timing and a 3 state sequencer) that would have been a much simpler job to implement with a PIC. It ended up with 25 transistors plus a bunch of other components. Why would yo do that? It was a aerospace application with very low production quantity. Even though it was a low crticality system (DAL C) the cost of documenting and validating the software (to DO-178) was a very significant cost, hundreds of man hours.
Another advantage as I was able to do the environmental qualification by analysis rather than test. Funnily enough though fully approved by the regulator our customer sold one on and the final user decided that they wanted to test it. They ran a full set of relevant tests (DO-160G) and fortunatly (but not surprisingly) it passed.
For high volume production the saving of even a few pence per unit is significant. Using a microcontroller also allows the addition of new functionality (or fixing bugs) without changing the hardware design or bill of materials. However connecting everything to the internet is a very bad idea IMHO.

Robert G8RPI.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Thermionic valves…

Ah, real electronics you could see working; and mounted on steel chassis which when scrapped yielded assorted useful BA screws and the like.

I recall seeing a 1kW audio-amplifier whose output stage was two valves each about a foot high and some 2-3" diameter. It was being tested after a service, using an ordinary electric fire as the dummy load. I was told its frequency response far exceeded even the most expensive and/or best-quality "hi-fi", but you would not want these massively-built things, about 6 ft tall, in the lounge. Wrong colour for a start – light duck–egg blue rather than regulation matt black. The frequency response was necessary because it was made for sonar and other acoustic experiments, at anything from a few c/s to many kc/s (None of these new-fangled Hertz things in those days.)

[Martin DowingParticipant @martindowing58466]

There is no need to connect discussed devices to wifi and their smart functions (IoT) remain dead.

Up to now I have none of these and pay attention not to buy any.

I don't want my fridge to report me to taxman, should a total amount of stuff taken in and out during a given month exceeded certain proportion of my pay.

Real troubles will begin once you simply cannot run these household devices without internet connection.

There might be a new profession for electronic geeks on horizon:

Disabler of smart functions.

[ChrisHParticipant @chrish]

3 days ago our washer dryer died – we don't have room for both machines seperate. Screen dead. In the middle of a wash. Died for no apparent reason. But it's electic, has wires coming out of it so not to be totally trusted. No power getting past whatever is the first bit it comes to in the machine. All looked good inside the machine, no dangling disconnected leads or dodgy smelling bits. Chance of trouble shooting that is as remore as a new car under bonnet problem.

It was an Ikea machine, so probably made by Whirlpool or Electrolux, bought partly because Ikea stuff comes with 5 year guarentees, this one had lasted over 10 so had probably done well by modern standards. Up to it failed it had been working perfectly, and all seemed super inside, probably what failed was some little electronic bit that costs about tuppence/ten thousand.

So new machine ordered next day, and day after it arrived. All installed and working so back in the dhobi business again, but this machine was supplied with a manual, so much stuff these days isn't. Mind you, the text is small, tricky to read and it takes for ever to read too, and then you find you have to learn a complete new way of working the machine and washing process.

There was this little light that kept flashing – the bluetooth icon. It appeared that it would connect with my mobile phone if I wanted. Going back to the OP – why on earth would I want to do that for, why was that thought a desirable option to fit.? As the OP said, you have to go to the machine to load it. So why would I want to then go and sit down in another room and the start it over the phone. Crazy

Luckily, the manual also told me which button to hold down for 3 seconds to make it disappear!

Chris

[JourneymanParticipant @journeyman]

Well the tumble dryer I started the thread with has been in use for a week, my observations thus far:-

My old dryer had a timer dial and a start button, the new one has a 16 program dial and 6 extra push buttons, I mean how many ways can there be to dry washing. It's either dry or not, right? Apparently not so, one of the buttons can set four different dryness levels basically wet, slightly wet, wet enough to iron, and almost dry!

With all this high tech heat pump drying the one thing it doesn't do is get clothes dry, well not what I would call dry. It has an A++ rating for energy usage so it uses half as much power as the old one. Problem is if you actually want things dry it has to run twice as long. By my calculation I don't think I am really saving power here, just spreading the load.

And no I haven't connected the b****y thing to the interweb nor am I likely to do so.

The wonders of modern technology…

John

P.S. The manual it came with is originally written in Turkish and both the translation and content leave a lot to be desired.

Edited By Journeyman on 26/02/2021 11:22:54

[Dr. MC BlackParticipant @dr-mcblack73214]

My Tumble drier has four settings and I always use the Extra Dry. It runs for about an hour but the things do come out dry.

The question of whether a suitable dryness to iron is completely irrelevant from my point of view!

Both my Washing Machine and Tumble Dryer are Miele brand.

If they connect to the Internet, it's NOT mentioned in the Manual – but maybe they are too old now.

Is Journeyman going to reveal the brand of his new machine?

MC

[JourneymanParticipant @journeyman]

It's a Hoover, I have to admit chosen mainly for the fact that it fits under a 600mm worktop. Most of the other machines I looked at were around 650mm or greater and thus stick out the front so to speak. I have to admit I am not in the category of 'Domestic Deity'.

John

[HOWARDTParticipant @howardt]

I remember some thirty years ago when doing a software course towards a OU degree and we had to design a washing machine cycle that would upload to a processor and work the necessary lights and motor within I think 128bytes. Someone asked why manufacturers put so many options on these types of machines and the simple answer was because they could. I doubt the manufacturers actually have a test panel who actually uses the machines just software engineers who look for something to do.

[Dr. MC BlackParticipant @dr-mcblack73214]

When I needed to replace my stove (condemned by insurance company's contractors after the fire), it was impossible to buy one where the oven door opened sufficiently to move the shelves.

The one supplied by the insurance company was NOT fit for purpose – so I threw it out and bought an induction hob (and lots of new pans) and a built in oven. Cabinets were all adapted by my builder.

The condemned stove had lasted 33 years and I would quite happily continued with it until I move into the care home but it was cheaper for the insurance company to throw it out than have it cleaned!

[ChrisHParticipant @chrish]

Our machine is also of Turkish origin – a Beko, despite vowing never to buy a Beko as they had a record of bursting into flames at one time.

Manual written in English one can understand, but to try and find one particular piece of information – say what all the pretty little icons on the display panel all mean for example – is very laborious to say the least.

There are three levels of dryness available we have discovered, extra dry, cupboard dry and iron dry. What each level of dryness precisely means I am not sure, but seeing as how we stopped ironing anything as soon as we retired 14 years ago the iron dry level is never going to be used.

You can also set the dryer to run for a certain period of time, it would seem from playing with the settings, but I've not read that in the manual. Mind you, it's a plus point that 1. we have a manual and 2. we can nearly understand it.

It's a seemingly clever little machine with lots of features buried in the manual and not clearly and readily visible, therefore you don't really know what you are doing until you have thoroughly mastered the manual, why do manufacturers have to make things so difficult, instead of applying a little thought to the process and marking the dials to clearly identify the process. For example, one wash programme is called Down Wear. What does that do? Well according to that manual we figured it mean we could wash clothing that contains feathers, but doesn't say what temperature it runs at. Another programme says Hand Wash. This is for washing woollen clothes apparently, but again doesn't say at what temperature. Why not say Wollens? To be fair the machine does select a temperature and you can alter it down if required. I think!

Chris

[peter smith 5Participant @petersmith5]

When the A….. lady first came on the market a group of my sons workmates, all degree level, decided to test its ability. They would meet , in turn, at each other’s homes suitably equipped and have loud conversations about the respective length of their “ you guess”. Each proclaimed that they needed another 50 mm or so, plus the fact that they also needed something to enhance and lengthen the ( imagined ) time of the experience. They did it over a period of 3 weeks.
It came as no surprise to receive emails, texts and good old catalogues through the post offering all sorts of solutions.
My son declined to say if he participated saying he had no need.

pete

[Dr. MC BlackParticipant @dr-mcblack73214]

Posted by peter smith 5 on 26/02/2021 18:13:13:

When the A….. lady

Please explain A… lady

Too subtle for me

MC

[Anthony KnightsParticipant @anthonyknights16741]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 24/02/2021 17:58:56:

Posted by Frances IoM on 24/02/2021 17:42:07:
The point I was trying to make is that the cost of these small PIC-like chips are very small + total cost considerably less than any design that requires components that cannot be autoplaced – the ability to use compute power to avoid components such as large value capacitors is another significant cost saving – added to these is the stocking cost of a single component vs many.
…

And not just small PIC-like chips. Rather powerful microcontrollers are, ahem, cheap as chips. Plus Field Programmable Gate Arrays and similar technologies capable of being mass-produced and told what they are later. As these things cost about the same as a discrete components of the same size and can do much, much more, there's been a rapid move away from discrete components. Many of them are getting difficult to find.

Bring back ECC81s and 6V6s. It's not proper electronics unless it glows in the dark and smells of hot Mullard!

Dave

These super chips might be "cheap as chips" but if you try to buy a new control board for say a washing machine, you will probably find the cost is not far short of a new machine. At least with discrete components, there was a good chance of effecting a repair. (Probably why they have gone down this route, or am I just being paranoid?)

[Dr. MC BlackParticipant @dr-mcblack73214]

It's easier (and cheaper) to employ a poorly trained operative who can simply replace a circuit board than a highly skilled engineer who could trace the fault and solder in replacements for defective components.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

The corporations do not want you to fix your old one. They want you to buy a new one. Then the old one is recycled. It's green, innit? Take a look at BMW recycling two year old cars and cry:

Edited By Hopper on 27/02/2021 09:25:00

[peter smith 5Participant @petersmith5]

A is for the lady inside the device that obeys all your commands – Weil most of them. If you don’t believe me “ask Alexa”

pete

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