RCD Tripping

[Raphael GolezParticipant @raphaelgolez]

Hello everyone, needed your input on what might be the possible problem on my S7 motor. Its been ok since I have my lathe over 5 years now and it never failed me once, ok a few times it tripped my RCD but after reset all is well until 2 days ago. My lathe is in a well ventilated shed and I doubt moisture is the cause as all my other machines are ok and its been in my shed for the last 5 years.

When I turned it on there was a "clicked" and everything went dead. So I went to reset my RCD knowing it will be ok but when I tried to switch it on it tripped the RCD again and not even a click on the motor. Wires are all ok, plug fuse is new and i could not smell any burning wires. The rest of my tools are ok so the wire to my shed is all intact.

The motor is the original Myford motor. I do have a spare stored away but I need to access it once weather is ok as its buried deep and I don't want to take things out yet. Motor is a single phase by the way.

I was wondering did I fried the motor?

Is the start capacitor the problem?

Is it moisture?

Hope you guys can help me out as I'm useless at electronics. I tried to search the web but I gave up at the end, guess this is the easiest way out. If you guys think its inappropriate for me to ask a silly question then mods can just delete this thread. Thanks in advance!

Raphael

Edited By Raphael Golez on 25/02/2021 17:22:41

[Raphael GolezParticipant @raphaelgolez]

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

Hmmm! I had a similar problem on my mill the other day. 3/4 Hp single phase capacitor start. After two resets of the RCD, no further problems. It was cold in the workshop, 4 degrees C, but not unusual winter temperatures.

[EmgeeParticipant @emgee]

Raphael

When you "turned it on", does that mean when you switched the power on supplying the lathe or when you operated a starter or other means of starting the lathe ?

Emgee

[Raphael GolezParticipant @raphaelgolez]

Posted by Emgee on 25/02/2021 17:34:36:

Raphael

When you "turned it on", does that mean when you switched the power on supplying the lathe or when you operated a starter or other means of starting the lathe ?

Emgee

Hi Emgee,

When I reset the RCD and turn on the lathe via the dewhurst switch it keeps on tripping the RCD. The motor does not make any noise at all. So I unloaded the motor from the pulley to test it. Everytime I turned the switch the only thing that is happening is the RCD tripping off. Surely if i fried the motor then subsequent reset of the RCD won't be affected as it shorted out, or is it the case that its just cold?

thanks,

Raphael

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

After a period of cold weather followed by a few days of warm weather moisture condensing onto cold metal can cause problems. It will sort itself out after some time but poorly ventilated areas will take more time than well ventilated ones. Since motors and switches tend to be poorly ventilated they can take a bit longer than expected. Given the recent weather condensation would be my prime suspect.

Martin C

[Thomas CooksleyParticipant @thomascooksley79020]

Hi Raphael, I would recommend that you disconnect the wiring at the motor and make the ends safe, either connectors or insulating tape. Then power the lathe up, if the RCD trips then the fault is in the wiring or the dewhurst switch. If the RCD doesn't trip then it looks like the motor. Unbolt the motor and take it indoors, put it somewhere warm and dry for a few days. Refit the motor and try it again if it still trips then you are going to have to get the motor looked at. Hope this helps Tom.

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

Re condensation possible cause for problem – might be an easy thing to find a small fan driven electric portable heater and let it play warm air on the motor / switch for a day or two, then re-try, before doing disassembly disconnections motor purchasing etc.

[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

Could there be a problem with the switch ?

Why not disconnect the motor and supply it without using the switch ?

Dont be surprised if it works ! If the motor was on its way out, you would have known about it before now, I think.

[Raphael GolezParticipant @raphaelgolez]

I see, thank you all for the input. I will dry things out and see what happens. I wish I could easily disconnect the motor from the switch Larry, but my lathe is position very close to the wall as to save me space. I need to take everything out of the way in my shed in order to leverage the lathe myself for access to the back and easily take the motor out and check the connection from the motor to the terminal block. Hopefully its just moisture as you all suggested and i will patiently wait for it to dry up once the weather improves. I feel that the motor is still ok but im no expert on these hence seeking all your expert opinions. Worse case scenario the motor is fried, I have a back up 1 Hp single phase but I have to dig it out from storage and reconnect as it has its own switch. Hoping that the motor is still ok.

Thank you all! If there are any other thoughts on this issue please share it here as I really need all the help I can get from all of you.

Raphael

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Dampness is the most likely, so a small fan heater for a few hours may solve it. Remove the terminal cover and blow the air in there ! If that doesn't do any goog slip the cover off the Dewhurst and give that 1/2 an hour. Disconnecting the wiring when the unit has a dewhurst switch is not so simple and the Op has said he is not good with electrics, so This may not be a good idea and in view of the number of questions we get on single phase motors and their problems and owners who know very little about them KISS seems a good addage. Try the fan heater first, if that does not help come back to us. Good Luck Noel.

[EmgeeParticipant @emgee]

Raphael

As said the problem could be in the switch but I believe more likely to be the motor.
If there is a short circuit live to earth or neutral at the motor repeated closing (switching ON) of the switch will cause further damage to the switch contacts.

If the trip is a balanced load type even a neutral to earth fault will operate the trip.
Check all wiring for damage and tight connections.
Is there a capacitor fitted ?

Ideally you need an insulation resistance test meter (Megger or other make) to locate the fault without causing further damage by making the faulty circuit live.
You may be lucky and locate the fault with an ohm meter.

Good advice given given re condensation in motor or Dewhurst, check the Dewhurst for signs of tracking between contacts and earthed metal.

Emgee

[Raphael GolezParticipant @raphaelgolez]

Emgee, Noel. Thank you. I will try to dry things up and hope I won't go through difficulties. I will be patience and wait for good weather to keep the moisture off the motor. I will also check att the wires and connection as all of you suggested as well as the switch. I will report back the outcome and let you all guys know. Again thank you all for the quick responses. It really helps me to think that I still have hope and a straight forward solution.

regards to all,

Raphael

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Raphael, the only places that damp could cause trouble is inside the motor electrical cover plate (two screws) and the centrifugal switch both of which are at the same end of the motor > would have thought the Dewhurst was too well sealed to get enough moisture in it.

If you normally switch the lathe on by the Dewhurst the metal splash from arcing may be causing enough earth leakage to cause the problem.

 

Edited By Dave Halford on 25/02/2021 21:14:37

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

Raphael,

Dewhirst switches are for motor reversal, not starting. Set Dewhirst to forward and use the wall switch to start. Constant use of the Dewhirst for on/off will damage the contacts. As Dave H and Emgee said, the large spark could cause earth leakage sufficient to make the RCD jump out.If after drying out and all wires securely clamped and motor still not going, then maybe the start capacitor has 'retired'. Replacement avail. on the internet, so I understand. It's under a casing with 2 screws on top of motor, just unbolt and replace. Dont do this for sometime since last live, high voltage shock risk. Serial no. on side of capacitor, to replace like for like.                                  When my original Myford motor packed up, I took the opportunity to modernise with a new vfd from Newton Tesla, so side-stepping single phase faults.Cost far more than original cost of new lathe, stand, 3 and 4 jaw chucks and other accessories put together when purchased many years ago. Wonderful! Wish I'd made the change over years ago. Of course, I realise that you may not wish to afford such a large expenditure on a new motor drive, only praising up my experience of the vfd.

HTH

John

 

Edited By DMB on 25/02/2021 22:19:01

[Raphael GolezParticipant @raphaelgolez]

Dave, John. Thank you. I will follow all your advice. I will dry things up and take it from there. I will check the capacitor if all fails and follow your advice. I will try to check this weekend and let you all know of the results. Again thank you for chipping in.

Raphael

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Dave, you may be supprised to find that the Dewhurst has NO sealing, just a tin cover, but yes there may be traces of vapourised metal that could form a track to ground. Since this unit has a dewhurst switch all 4 wires from the motor, 2 start and 2 run there is NO live to the motor ! L1 and N are fed to the switch which then dictates the direction of rotation and switches the run windings in. We will look at faulty capacitors in the next chapter ! Noel.

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Noel, I considered the small tin cover would not hold enough air, nor would there be a noticeable change of air to condense enough moisture either.

It would be interesting, but not possible to see how/if the motor ran without an RCD

[John Paton 1Participant @johnpaton1]

Just to add another possibility as I have experienced it a couple of times – insects getting into switchgear.they like to0 lay up for winter in hidden holes like switch boxes. On one occasion an earwig gave sufficient electrical path in a plug top to actually blow the fuse (he ended up as a carbon track!)

I have also heard of people getting earth faults from fine brass dust getting into mischievous places. You will know best how clean you machine is but it might be worth taking a look under cover plates to electrical connections before rushing out and changing the motor.

If it trips only when you try and start the motor (as opposed to when you switch on the machine with the motor stationary) it could be the start capacitor failing. Any capacitor over 10 years old will be a suspect and as others have said arcing from the contractor or the motor's centrifugal capacitor start switch can also trip RCDs.

[JourneymanParticipant @journeyman]

Posted by Raphael Golez on 25/02/2021 17:54:49:

When I reset the RCD and turn on the lathe via the dewhurst switch it keeps on tripping the RCD. The motor does not make any noise at all. So I unloaded the motor from the pulley to test it. Everytime I turned the switch the only thing that is happening is the RCD tripping off. Surely if i fried the motor then subsequent reset of the RCD won't be affected as it shorted out, or is it the case that its just cold?

thanks,

Raphael

I notice that Raphael says he is turning the lathe on and off via the Dewhurst switch. I was under the impression that such a switch should only be used to set the rotation direction, the actual starting and stopping to be done through an NVR or similar. Perhaps the contacts in the Dewhurst switch have been damaged.

John

[Raphael GolezParticipant @raphaelgolez]

Thanks Noel, Dave, John Paton and John.

John (Journeyman), Yes Im guilty of doing that as Im unaware of its true purpose. DMB mentioned it and I just have a sinking feeling after his explanation and yours. I thought that its ok and I have been doing that for 5 years. Maybe I have caused damage to it. If only I knew its true purpose then I might have stop long time ago, guess its payback time now. If everything fixed, where would the NVR switch be located on the line? Just asking directly but if its difficult to describe I will try to research it at some point. I will try to see over the weekend and will follow all your advices.

 

Cheers,

Raphael

Edited By Raphael Golez on 26/02/2021 12:21:53

[Brian MorehenParticipant @brianmorehen85290]

if you have airline try blowing everything out for a few mind and then try again ay work.

Good Luck Bee.M

[JourneymanParticipant @journeyman]

Basically the NVR goes between the wall socket and the Dewhurst switch. Preferably in a location that is easy to reach when operating the lathe.

John

Edit: Spelling 

Edited By Journeyman on 26/02/2021 18:53:13

[Raphael GolezParticipant @raphaelgolez]

Posted by Journeyman on 26/02/2021 18:50:39:

Basically the NVR goes between the wall socket and the Dewhurst switch. Preferably in a location that is easy to reach when operating the lathe.

John

Edit: Spelling

Edited By Journeyman on 26/02/2021 18:53:13

Thanks John and Brian.

[Raphael GolezParticipant @raphaelgolez]

Good morning to all. After following all the advice here I managed to fix the motor. Thank you to all who have chipped in their advices and instructing me on what to do.

This is the culprit, this wire I believe is the earth. Repeated rotation of the motor caused it to rub on the housing and the wire plastic over time becomes brittle and the mounting snapped. The wire then went inside the mounting where I could not obviously see and seems to look like its still connected and Its likely shorting out and tripping the RCD. I cleaned everything dried up the motor for a good 1 hour with the heater and replaced the wire and fully tightened everything. I also cleaned the dewhurst switch and dried everything up. Restarted the motor and all went well. I will get a NVR switch as advised. Again thank you all for helping me out.

Best wishes to all,

Raphael

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