Quality issues with a SIEG SX2.7 mini mill

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

[This posting has been removed]

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Chris Trice on 20/02/2019 23:21:54:

…

Exactly my point Michael. It comes under the heading of what the market will tolerate. All the time the market tolerates it sufficiently to not affect sales, there's no incentive to change.

Problem is that a milling machine is usually a once-in-a-lifetime purchase. So a bad experience does not alter future behaviour. The buyer was never likely to buy a second mill anyway.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Although imported machinery is cheap it still needs quite a lot of hard earned money to buy it. Expecting Aciera or Schaublin quality at Asian prices is unrealistic. When you sit back and think what you get for what you have paid you are not doing to badly. As you have bought cheap you are going to have to put in some effort or money to reach your expectations of precision. When you have fettled the unfeasably cheap machine to an acceptable level you will be quids in compared to buying a top quality machine. As we are obsessed with the lowest price it is unreasonable to expect the highest quality, it would be interesting to see how the price rises if the specification was improved, I suspect the Asian suppliers could provide very good value for money but at the end of the day quality does cost money.

Mike

[Martin Shaw 1Participant @martinshaw1]

Not at all Hopper. I originally bought an SX2P, which I subsequently sold to Ron Laden. He, as I before him, realised it's limitations, but within those limits is able to produce perfectly adequate machined parts, as he as reported up thread. I have latterly purchased an SX2.7 which does all I want of it to perfectly acceptable tolerances. There does seem to be more than a hint of people wanting a Bridgeport for buttons, which is of course impossible, the simple answer is if your unhappy with what's on offer, be prepared to spend a lot more, or conversely if you think that £1200 or so is going to buy you a high precision tool room machine, don't be unduly surprised if it doesn't deliver. At the end of the day the skill of the operator is always going to be more important anyway.

Martin

[John McNamaraParticipant @johnmcnamara74883]

All Credit to you Piotr for starting this conversation…..

And to all the other contributors too. Reading between the lines there is clearly an undercurrent of dissatisfaction, The comments have be based on actual user experiences not just rhetoric, and better still no flaming or invective. Genuine concerns explained clearly and politely. Democracy at work.
I rather hope some of the suppliers are also watching, If I was one oth them I would be thinking how I could improve matters before the weight of public opinion started impacting on sales.

Regards
john

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by John McNamara on 21/02/2019 07:28:31:

Reading between the lines there is clearly an undercurrent of dissatisfaction,

Interesting conclusion, I've just been back through the thread and taking those that have actually said they have chinese nachines i get those against 3 (Piotr, Peter Shaw,Anna) those happey with their s 4 (Martin Shaw, Martin P, SOD, Ron) and you know which way I feel about my X3

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

have the original makers "M" mark cast into them

I was told that the "M" mark signified that the casting was Meehanite, not a maker's mark.

XYZ import (or have imported – they have been doing so for a while) Bridgeport type machines from at least two different makers – when looking for a manual on their website to order spares for our XYZ KRV2000 there were two makers of turret mills to choose from. The KRV is made by "King Rich" IIRC. Decent machine, but a bit big for my garage.

Nigel B

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Piotr Gertz on 21/02/2019 10:33:03:

Here I actually have a question: Is it better to support the entire base over all edges, which is flat to some extent, or just the four mounting points on jacks so that I can make it level?

If you are going to use jacking screws then there was little point in flattening the mounting plate as the jacks will adjust out any errors on what the mill is stood on.

Unless the base of the casting is as flat as the plate then as soon as you bolt it down to the plate which ever is more flexible will move.

FWIW the SX2.7 I have here just sits on a length of laminate kitchen worktop on some old draw units and my X3 sits on the provided adjustable feet. The KX-3 I have just got has similar adjustable feet which I will be using. My personal thinking is that they are not bolted down when assembled and "adjusted" as far as I know.

 

Michael your thoughts would seem reasonable and are why I said that someone working with ground surfaces and gauge blocks to make tooling would probably be expecting too much when you think that a half decent grinder should be able to work to 0.002mm

Edited By JasonB on 21/02/2019 11:16:32

[colin calverParticipant @colincalver]

Are not model engineers FITTERS too. Bore a hole and machine shaft to fit, mill a slot and machine slide to fit. If you want make 100 off with guarantee interchangeability then you would need high end machine. i have made lots of model engines from wobblers to internal combustion and traction engine too, and not ever really check the accuracy of my Chinese mill or lathe, but all my models work. Get some pleasure from your machines

[Rob Murgatroyd 1Participant @robmurgatroyd1]

I don't know what reputation this chap enjoys among members of this forum, but I found this YouTube video about tramming a column-type mill very illuminating and it offers perspective of what we might expect from our affordable equipment. Stephan Gotteswinter

[HOWARDTParticipant @howardt]

As Andrew Johnston and probably others, accuracy depends on what you are trying to achieve. I was a machine tool designer for most of my working life. The accuracy required by any machine and fixtures. most usually there where more than one machining station and hence multiple work holding fixtures, was required to be a percentage of the produced component drawing tolerance. For those who like reading look up Sigma tolerance analysis. Machines were built with spacers and setting blocks to enable tweaking of position. Here of course I am talking of one off special machines.

European and USA designed standard machines were/are built using special machines in some cases to achieve part tolerances which when built into the final assembly achieve their standard tolerances. These machines in most cases where heavy cast iron floor mounted machines, built like the proverbial house. Over the last thirty years the CNC machines have largely took over where multiple hand operated machines stood, but these are still heavy duty machines. All these machines are built with the ability to achieve a final accuracy check, which may require a part to be re-machined or reset to achieve this.

Our hobby machines, I use a Sieg SC3 lathe and a SX2P which I bought three years ago, new. Both machines have been partially stripped for one reason or another more than once, and some improvements (as far as I am concerned) made in that time. But other than checking tailstock alignment, I haven't bothered with any other accuracy checks. Once you start chasing microns as a hobby machinist you would be better to walk away and find another hobby, you will never be satisfied. The drawings from LSBC or whoever have no tolerances, so if two bits fit together and look about right then that is it, What ever we produce is a kit of parts which with varying degrees of hand fitting may produce a finished working assembly. Alright in the past model engineers probably got a few of the more accurate parts produced on the side at work but they also had less accurate machines with no DRO, but any of these where probably time served indentured engineers. Work with what you have and strive to achieve the fits required by thoughtful processes.

Would I have done anything with this SX2.7, probably. If surface finishes are poor between two sliding faces then I would try to improve it. But if column squareness creates a problem on a machined part then is it the right machine process. Could the part be processed some other way to achieve a better end result.

If anybody wants to start up a UK manufacturing facility for designing and building hobby size machines then I am sure Ketan would support them so long as prices where compatible with our purses.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Anna 1 on 20/02/2019 20:39:04:

Ok. Dave. S.O.D.

Tell me where do I buy the Precision Mathews equivalent 9/35 mill, which is made in Taiwan, here in the Uk. As far as I can see nobody is importing Taiwanese machines. Which would be a good half way house in terms of quality

I have a similar lathe to you which is now ok with some work. My super major mill however, which is Chinese garbage which cost me over £3500 with dro was money down the drain. the Test sheet was work of fiction.( and it had nothing to do with the distorting casting red herrings etc.) If I just wanted to put a few electronic components in a box a drilling machine would do.

A recent poster has just paid £3650 for the vario super major which was clearly badly machined and not fit for purpose, for the most part all his posting got for his query, was criticism of his measuring technique, most unfair. I would be quite upset with the response he got. He deserves better.

Anna

 

 

 

Anna,

Even though there are many of them in the UK part of the problem buying a better new machine is finding a supplier. They are often deliberately low-profile. However, on the web, Chester has a department selling better machines to industry and education. They might be worth a call.

You may already know that this level of purchase is unlikely to be an ordinary consumer transaction. Websites and catalogues don't give prices and negotiations normally begin by calling for a quote or requesting advice. Then you have grown-up conversations with sales and technical staff. Unfortunately for us many of these firms will only deal with organisations. It's because their experience shows most casual callers are time-wasters, not deliberately but private individuals out of their depth financially who are unable to cope with commercial 'Terms and Conditions'. One way to get past that obstacle is to declare your budget immediately, a 5 figure sum proves you're serious and opens most doors! Buck and Hickman are worth a look – they are 'retail' and they stock some better machines and give prices on their website.

Demand for high and mid-range manual machines is very low compared with that for CNC and it may be no-one stocks what you want in the UK. It might be necessary to get an importer like Mid Bucks Machine Tools to source the machine for you, or you could find an exporter in Taiwan. It will cost a bob or two and there will be paperwork!

It's certainly achievable though, quite a few Model Engineers live in countries without a machine tool retailer they can buy from locally. They jump through hoops buying hobby machines, let alone posher ones. More than one of the UK suppliers acts as an exporter in these cases.

Buying a new machine tool that ticks all your boxes will be expensive, £3500 is nowhere near enough to buy a certified milling machine new! Almost all the forum members who own quality kit bought it second-hand, and that may be your best bet too.

Dave

 

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 21/02/2019 16:35:24

[Anna 1Participant @anna1]

Dave, thank you for your reply.

The machine I was looking at Precision Mathews (9/35 VS mill) is circa 6200 dollars + additions and I suspect that would translate to circa £6200 sterling as machinery seems to be more expensive here. It is the only small machine I know where the head nods in the X and Y axis, it is a scaled down Bridgeport lookalike. with similar features. Not cheap but a good halfway house compared with the prices of the premium makers. Having written that I do not know that any of the premium brands still make small manual machines. I will investigate your suggestions ,

Thank you.

Anna

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Posted by HOWARDT on 21/02/2019 15:42:14:

Our hobby machines, I use a Sieg SC3 lathe and a SX2P which I bought three years ago, new. Both machines have been partially stripped for one reason or another more than once, and some improvements (as far as I am concerned) made in that time. But other than checking tailstock alignment, I haven't bothered with any other accuracy checks. Once you start chasing microns as a hobby machinist you would be better to walk away and find another hobby, you will never be satisfied. The drawings from LSBC or whoever have no tolerances, so if two bits fit together and look about right then that is it, What ever we produce is a kit of parts which with varying degrees of hand fitting may produce a finished working assembly. Alright in the past model engineers probably got a few of the more accurate parts produced on the side at work but they also had less accurate machines with no DRO, but any of these where probably time served indentured engineers. Work with what you have and strive to achieve the fits required by thoughtful processes.

In the late 70's I found myself finishing my engineering apprenticeship and at my new bench as a machine tool fitter, having learnt the theory and the basics I was about to learn the proper stuff, I was let alone on some jobs on the understanding that if I had a problem I was to call for assistance, I worked on Multi spindle lathes, single spindle turret lathes, Index's usually and as time passed I began to shadow other fitters working on centerless grinders, external and internal grinders, one of the makes of machine was UVA internal grinders and we had approx fifty of them in the factory, these machines ground the internal bores of Diesel fuel injectors and were maintained by a couple of fitters who new their stuff, I was left in their care to learn about the machines and they showed me how to chase microns, they mounted a TDI on the nose of a grinding spindle set it to zero and got me to place my hand on the spindle and after a while the TDI dial started to move, this exercise was to show what I was going to be working against as when a operator said he had a two micron bump in a bore, we had had to find and sort it and the fitters wanted me to see how difficult it was likely to be.

Martin P

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Anna 1 on 21/02/2019 17:07:27:

…

The machine I was looking at Precision Mathews (9/35 VS mill) is circa 6200 dollars + additions…

Not cheap but a good halfway house compared with the prices of the premium makers. …

Anna

Hi Anna,

Not come across Precision Matthews in the USA before, but reading their website reminds me of Optimum in Germany. Optimum machines are typical Far Eastern except they claim German inspection standards have been applied.

Bit more expensive than usual and there have been posts discussing whether or not they are worth the extra money. My feeling is they are much the same machines as usual, but have been selected and mildly fettled upwards within a price. Trouble with fitting machines rather than making them throughout with precision technique in the first place is labour costs are so high you don't get much fettling for your money. If a cheap machine needs fitting, better to do it yourself, but of course not everyone wants to do that or accepts it's anything other than a d****d con-trick.

Precision Matthews warranty makes an interesting read. It includes: 'Warranty covers parts only, service is not covered under the warranty. The customer is responsible to perform their own repair work, or they can choose to hire someone at their expense. Again, warranty does not cover labor or service, any warranty is for parts only. To obtain warranty repair parts, please contact us, and we will instruct you to send the part that you think is defective to us for inspection. If we determine that the part is defective, the defective part will be repaired or replaced at no charge to you.' This is poor stuff compared with the warranty provided by a UK supplier!

If you've not come across Optimum already, may be worth a look. If so order quickly in case "It Who Must Not Be Named" goes pear-shaped, only 906 hours to go…

Dave

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Dave although PM do the Weiss machines they also have a better range which is what Anna is looking at. Their "Blue Machining" group is handy for any users of the Weiss (Warco etc) type machines.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by JasonB on 21/02/2019 18:41:14:

Dave although PM do the Weiss machines they also have a better range which is what Anna is looking at. Their "Blue Machining" group is handy for any users of the Weiss (Warco etc) type machines.

Thanks Jason – I missed that completely!

[Anna 1Participant @anna1]

Hello Jason.

Thanks for that, not heard of the "Blue machining" group sounds interesting,

Thank you

Anna

sent this earlier but it didn't appear so might end up as double post

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

This is the link to it, could risk some "interesting" results if you use Google

[Anna 1Participant @anna1]

Hi,Jason.

Many thanks

Anna

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Probably a high point to end this thread.

It's drifted along way from Piotr's issues and the temperature has been rather high at times.

If anyone tries these more 'upscale' machines it will be interesting to see their thoughts in a new thread.

Neil

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