Not a model engineer looking for mill advice

[Trevor Drabble 1Participant @trevordrabble1]

Muzzer , It's rare to be so appreciated , thank you . Trevor.

[Patryk SochaParticipant @patryksocha88647]

Posted by Ian Skeldon 2 on 24/07/2018 22:51:03:

Firstly Martin, thank you for your kind comments in an earlier post, I am always happy to help where I can.

Patryk, I think you have somewhat under estimated the response to your original question. You clearly state that you have little or no experience and ask for advice. The advice streams in with a large majority of that indicating that a seig would be a good place to start, you seem determined to ignore the advice you asked for so what exactly do you want, the cheapest out there on the internet? Just some particular colour scheme? A second hand one that you will not have the skills to check over properly? Something that you can buy and leave enough money to buy cutting tools and a good quality vice and/or clamping set?

I have no connections with any of the suppliers listed or mentioned within this thread, but I know which way I would go after asking the contributors for help.

I think I was misunderstood. At no point, I have indicated (I think) one or the other direction. I have asked the question only yesterday, and you are right, the response is overwhelming, for which I thank you very much. Thanks to it a lot have been clarified for me, and I have now much better understanding (still long way to go). For this example, I have almost completely discarded second-hand machine, for the very reasons you have just stated. I had no idea yesterday that almost all mini mill is coming from handful manufacturers, I was only suspecting it as some looked similar, and was expecting that people here will be suggesting a much wider array of manufacturers or distributors. Unanimous surprised me a bit, that's true. And to make matters more interesting, the only person pointing a finger in other direction than SEIG is representative of SEIG distributor

See, at this point I still need to find out what "good vice" means…

[I.M. OUTAHEREParticipant @i-m-outahere]

That is why we recommended you talk to Ketan !

I don't think there are any other retailers that would recommend that you buy some other retailers machine because he believes it will suit you better ! Most will just feed you some bu****it and try to sell you the next size up in thier range .

I think your next move needs to be going and looking at the makes & models you have indicated that you are interested in – leave your credit / bank card or cheque book at home for now !

I tend to treat the process like buying an old car – look around on the internet for as much info as i can then go and have a look at a few – used car dealers are good for this as they usually have some rough ones to look at for rust etc.

Once i know what i'm looking for and at the hunt is on !

Usually i would recommend you go as big as you can but as you have a weight restriction you are going to be limited to machines that stay below that .

I wouldn't worry about a DRO unless you can swing a deal with the retailer , also keep a look out for Model engineering exhibitions and the like as some retailes have special deals on at those times .

Remember a lathe or mill is a costly investment so don't rush into it !

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Patryk Socha on 24/07/2018 23:21:51:

And to make matters more interesting, the only person pointing a finger in other direction than SEIG is representative of SEIG distributor

See, at this point I still need to find out what "good vice" means…

Hey Patryk,

I am only pointing you in the direction your mind is telling you to go. At the end of the day, you should go with what ever makes you feel happy.

Size, weight, price, etc… you will get to understand if you visit the sellers, or see their machines at engineering shows at which they participate. You will probably see the Bristol guy at the Bristol Model Engineering Show in August.Looking at the current traders list, Emvio – Bristol guy is probably the only seller of new machines 'currently' at that show, with Home and Workshop Machinery who will probably have a selection of second hand machines. There used to be more sellers of machines there at one time, but one by one (starting with ARC), it looks like other machine sellers stopped going to that show…. due to a whole bunch of reasons.

Next show there after will be at Warwick in October – Midlands Model Engineering Exhibition. At this show, you will get to meet Chester Machine Tools, Warco, who do the machines you seek, along with some others. Here you will get an idea of sizes and weights. You are always welcome to visit us North of Leicester. We are about an hour and a half North of MK, near Junction 21A-M1. We will be happy to show you vices and other tooling which you would need to consider to go along with any mill you purchase. These accessories are dependent on the machine you buy.

Ketan at ARC.

[Anonymous]

Posted by Patryk Socha on 24/07/2018 23:21:51:

…………………..at this point I still need to find out what "good vice" means…

Standard answer is Kurt.

But sadly even their small vices are too big for the mills you are considering; a Bridgeport is about the smallest mill they will fit.

Andrew

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

I wouldn't bother chasing an Optimum. The only Optimum machine I'v seen – a micro lathe – was woefully poor in construction and assembly and needed quite a bit of work to make it useable. Problems included a bed with bend in it like a banana – about 10 thou from memory – and a leadscrew so far out of line it jammed the carriage up in use. Absolutely the poorest machine tool I've seen in 45 years of fiddling around with machinery at work and at home.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

First impressions count. Perhaps they are not as predicted, but further evidence will either reinforce or dispel that first impression. I’ve quietly followed this thread.

The last bit noted was about Ketan’s ‘not really professional approach’. I would suggest Ketan was very candid and spot on. Typical salesman carp to suggest that Sieg was not real, so it was he that was not professional at all. Ketan would, perhaps, have been better served by conversing with an engineer, not a salesman.

My definition of a salesman: someone who learns less and less, about more and more, until they know bugger-all about everything.

I regard myself as quite good at ‘reading between the lines’. I think this thread has a lots of missing bits, ‘between the lines’

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Hi NDIY,

I think Patryk was referring to Optimum's Chinese partners response as being 'not really professional'.

Just to put it into context, I was having dinner with one of our accessory factory suppliers. In a conversation over a few drinks, I mentioned about my discontentment over a few issues with SIEG at the time (about ten years ago). So, the chap I was speaking to suggested i speak with one of his close friends. At the time, I did not know that he was calling the Optimum joint venture partner, not that that mattered in any way. So, after calling his friend, he handled his phone to me to discuss. At this point the guy 'owner' of the Chinese arm introduced himself, I introduced myself and a limited conversation took place. I later discussed the matter with the SIEG GM, and found out that things weren't 'friendly' between Optimum and SIEG.

Nothing to be read really in between the lines.

Regarding Hoppers comments: that particular Optimum lathe probably wasn't one of the best Optimum offerings. The bigger machines are better quality/build. Normally, what happens is that the piggy backers watch the sales activity of Optimum/SIEG, letting them take the R&D investments/risks/paperwork, and jump onto then making what ever is selling well, with reasonable profit. This is the normal business practice.

Patryk doesnt really need to worry too much about the fact that the products he is looking at are clones of OPTIMUM. Some are better and some are worse clones. He just has to figure out whose 'pitch' out of the clones meets his needs, and who can provide him the back up.

Ketan at ARC.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by peak4 on 24/07/2018 21:05:39:

A quick peruse on there might be to your advantage, as I've just spotted a Myford VM-E for a similar price to the Bristol machine. If I didn't already have an ex-university Centec 2B, I'd be on my way to Wales as soon as

 

Why buy a new Far Eastern mill when you can buy a second hand one?

Neil

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 25/07/2018 14:29:20

[ChrisHParticipant @chrish]

Hi Patryk, I have been following this thread with interest, not because I want a new mill but to read the interesting comments and opinions. So far you seem to have received excellent advice. I have had dealings with Axminster, Arc and Warco over the past ten years and all companies have been good to deal with; unfortunately, Axminster seems now more inclined to go after those that like to play with that brown stuff instead of those that like making swarf, so have most dealings with Arc and Warco and both have impressed with their service and advice and products purchased. The comprehensive and constructive comments that Ketan from Arc has made in this thread, even to the point of directing you elsewhere should you want more than a hobby machine, have been most impressive IMHO and has only increased the esteem in which he is held on here.

There is no substitute for actually going and looking at machines in the flesh; missing out of the Warco Open Day was a lost opportunity – you should have just gone but left your wallet at home! But both Warco and Arc have showrooms with their kit on display. It would be well worth your time in taking a trip up to Arc for a look-see and a chat with Ketan, then a trip down to Warco and chat with them, or vice versa, then make up your mind.

The advice I got when looking for a mill was to go for the heaviest that your workshop and wallet would support on the basis that with mills, weight tends to equate with rigidity, and go for the biggest you can accommodate rather than the one you think you need now, on the basis that you can always do little things on a big mill but trying to do big things on a little mill can put you very much into the "very difficult" to "totally impossible" territory.

Chris

[Patryk SochaParticipant @patryksocha88647]

Posted by XD 351 on 25/07/2018 09:13:14:

I think your next move needs to be going and looking at the makes & models you have indicated that you are interested in – leave your credit / bank card or cheque book at home for now !

Posted by ChrisH on 25/07/2018 16:44:36:

There is no substitute for actually going and looking at machines in the flesh; missing out of the Warco Open Day was a lost opportunity – you should have just gone but left your wallet at home! But both Warco and Arc have showrooms with their kit on display. It would be well worth your time in taking a trip up to Arc for a look-see and a chat with Ketan, then a trip down to Warco and chat with them, or vice versa, then make up your mind.

Posted by Ketan Swali on 25/07/2018 10:58:37:

Size, weight, price, etc… you will get to understand if you visit the sellers, or see their machines at engineering shows at which they participate. (…) You are always welcome to visit us North of Leicester. We are about an hour and a half North of MK, near Junction 21A-M1…

Yup, fully agree, and this is what I have started to do. I am Field Service Engineer for the company distributing large format printers, so I get to travel a lot up and down of the country (8 times out of 10 its London). Today have been in East London and I paid a visit to Amadeal. Guys were trying to be very helpful but as the owner was not there they could not answer a lot of the questions I had… But at last, I had a chance to see some of the machines (though older models). I would accept your Ketan's and Nige's invitations and pay a visit too… Sooner or later I will be driving Warco direction as well…

Leave the wallet at home? Please! Puny obstructions

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 25/07/2018 11:22:58:

Standard answer is Kurt.

But sadly even their small vices are too big for the mills you are considering; a Bridgeport is about the smallest mill they will fit.

Hmmm… Might be a little too big for tennis ball size workpiece…

Posted by not done it yet on 25/07/2018 11:56:26:

My definition of a salesman: someone who learns less and less, about more and more, until they know bugger-all about everything.

I don't like to generalize, but sometimes it is true. The amount of time I had to spend managing customers expectations after they were told they will get unicorns and magic flutes…

Posted by Ketan Swali on 25/07/2018 13:48:44:

Patryk doesnt really need to worry too much about the fact that the products he is looking at are clones of OPTIMUM. Some are better and some are worse clones.

But actually, this argument made a huge impact on my decision making. Whenever I can I always try to spupport innovative developer. This is why I have started enquiring about Optimum machines in UK. I had read some 10-year-old ME article where it was mentioned Optimum machines were 20-30% more expensive than £650 Waiss (Weiss?). If that would be the case I would rather opt for Optimum, however, the price difference nowadays seems to be quite a bit greater.

Posted by ChrisH on 25/07/2018 16:44:36:

Axminster seems now more inclined to go after those that like to play with that brown stuff instead of those that like making swarf…

??? You mean wood, right?

Posted by Ketan Swali on 25/07/2018 13:48:44:

Hi NDIY,

I think Patryk was referring to Optimum's Chinese partners response as being 'not really professional'.

(…)

These accessories are dependent on the machine you buy.

Thank you. For the moment I was terrified that I have miss-wrote this sentence somehow!

And just as I thought that tools and accessories choice will be far easier…

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Funny enough I have dealt with Axminster for about 25 years and would say that at present they do more engineering machinery than they have ever done,there was a time when they only did the BV20 lathe. Their main business is and has always been wood related.

[ChrisHParticipant @chrish]

Jason, I live fairly near Axminster and SWMBO could always get me to take her to Axminster shopping by suggesting I might need something from Axminster Tools; last time, a few months ago, I came away definitely very disenchanted and more so than the time before which was also disenchanting.

At the Axminster shop they have been reducing the metal working side display quite significantly over the past 2-3 years in their showroom at the expense of the wood working side – one of their salesmen admitted as much to me when I mentioned the reduced display to him. The prices of tooling also seems to have gone up too. My perception is that they are trying to be a bit up-market. On the odd comparison of like for like (or very similar) Arc and Warco seem more keenly priced, or that's my perception.

I don't blame them for increasing the wood side, they have to go after whatever sells for them, just a shame (for me) it's the metal working side that seems to be reducing. Perhaps there is more in their catalogue than they want to put on display.

Chris

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 25/07/2018 14:29:09:

Posted by peak4 on 24/07/2018 21:05:39:

A quick peruse on there might be to your advantage, as I've just spotted a Myford VM-E for a similar price to the Bristol machine. If I didn't already have an ex-university Centec 2B, I'd be on my way to Wales as soon as

 

Why buy a new Far Eastern mill when you can buy a second hand one?

Neil

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 25/07/2018 14:29:20

I appreciate that the VM-E wasn't made in Beeston, but I understood, perhaps wrongly, that they were made in Taiwan and then dis/reassembled by the original Myford engineers.

Bill

Edited By peak4 on 25/07/2018 19:45:54

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

They did undergo QC at Myford, but I think it would be an exaggeration to say they were rebuilt.

Neil

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Based on Hopper's experience in sorting out someone else's Optimum, in Australia, I would be wary. But that is purely my perception.

With regard to UK suppliers customer service, in my experience, I would rate Arc, Warco, Chester in that order (Have had no dealings with Amadeal or AMG so cannot comment).

Arc come first, based on my contacts, not that Ketan makes much out of me, since I only buy small bits and pieces rather than machines. have only made ONE £100+ purchase; the rest rarely reach £30.

From the comments, on here, from others, I cannot be alone in my estimation, of him and his staff.

Howard

[dcostaParticipant @dcosta]

Hello Patrick,

I have an Optimum BF20 Vario milling machine since 2008 that has not been used much. To tell you about the capabilities of it, let me tell you that with BF20 I made the most of a Gingery shapper, which is not yet complete, and you can see here ***HERE***.

Since 2014 I have not used it.
I like her a lot, it works well.
However, because it is in a spline that the spindle receives the movement transmitted to it by the gears, after a few years of use, when in a somewhat more demanding work, there is an very annoying noise that causes me to wish, if I could, substitute the system geared by a pulley and belt system

I suspect most of the clones of the BF20 have the same transmission mechanism…

If I could replace the Optimum BF20 Vario with a machine that uses pulley and belt, and now brushless motor. Probably a Sieg SX3 HiTorque from ArcEurotrade.
Another possibility will be to acquire and install in the milling machine a transformation kit for pulley and belt but I do not yet know how to move forward when I start working again with the milling machine …

I am, in Portugal, a casual and satisfied customer of ArcEuroTrade.

Because English is not my mother tong, I fear not being clear. If so, please let me know and I'll try better.

Regards
Dias Costa

Edited By dcosta on 26/07/2018 15:59:04

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