New Milling Machine – advice requested

[IgnatzParticipant @ignatz]

I have finally come around to the conclusion that it is time for me to upgrade my current milling machine – a somewhat tired, old CH-10M vertical mill/drill – because it just lacks the range, rigidity and precision for the bits of hobby work that I want to do.

Any comments that would help me to make a more informed decision would be richly appreciated. [ By the way, I'm located here on the continent which might be a factor in terms of availability and/or shipping. ]

The space in my shop doesn't allow for one of those beefy, old industrial units and so it sort of looks like I'm in the market for one of the Warco's, Optimum's or what have you. I'm thinking that the ultimate size of the unit should not be more than two fellows working together could comfortably move.

Note: I'm sort of suspecting that a lot of those machines come out of the same factory, but may differ in terms of attention to detail and/or fit and finish.

 

 

[IgnatzParticipant @ignatz]

[Paul H 1Participant @paulh1]

Living in France and having bought my lathe and mill from the UK a couple of years ago, don't be put off by shipping. I put a lot of research into what I wanted to buy and including shipping I got a much better deal than buying from any of the mainland European suppliers I found. I do not know why but for what seemed to be the same machine the price was always much higher. All the companies in the UK I contacted were happy to ship to France and it was not an unusual request for them.

With respect to size my mill is an equivalent of the Warco WM18. I am not terribly strong but from the crate being unloaded outside the workshop to putting it into place on the bench I built, I did everything alone. I built an angle iron drilling machine stand with good sized castors and used that to move the machine. Afterwards I installed the drilling machine.

One question I would ask all the suppliers you approach is what kind of variable speed controller board they use, do they always stock the spare boards and what price. Same for motors. That is if you are going for electronic variable speed (most of the machines in this size) with a DC motor as opposed to gears.

Paul

[mechman48Participant @mechman48]

I have a WM16 mill & find it more than capable for carrying out 'Hobby' work. I used a engine hoist that I'd bought when I converted my garage so with the help of that & SWMBO, the mill, & lathe were put on to their respective stands easily enough, so a WM18 size should be manageable with two reasonably fit guys, & be able to fit into a quite small space.

George.

[Thor 🇳🇴Participant @thor]

Like Paul and George I have a bench mounted milling machine, mine is slightly bigger than the WM16 and a bit smaller than the WM18. Today I would have bought the larger of the two.

Thor

[IgnatzParticipant @ignatz]

Thank you. Those are all helpful comments. But, there are two things I forgot to ask.

First of all: Assuming that I set up one of those mills correctly, using quality cutters, what kind of tolerances might I reasonably expect to hold?

Secondly: If to equip the mill with digital readouts is it better to purchase the unit with the DRO factory-installed or are there any advantages to attaching the required unit (or some other DRO) by myself?

 

[David George 1Participant @davidgeorge1]

I bought a Chester Champion 16V mill and could get within a thou with care and then I bought an M DRO 3 axis kit DRO and it has made it even better and as I fitted it myself it was cheaper than having it refitted. I would have had the 20V but space on my bench is restricted.

David

[Niels AbildgaardParticipant @nielsabildgaard33719]

I have this one

**LINK**

I removed work table and sviveling spindle head (15 minutes work) before putting it in place.Peace of cake for two seventy year oldies.

**LINK**

Tranport from Holland to Denmark was less than 100€ and I very happy with it.

I misplaced a hole 2mm and measured the misplacing to 1.98mm.Not bad

[IgnatzParticipant @ignatz]

Niels, love that second picture. What kind of tolerances does that puppy hold?

 

[MeunierParticipant @meunier]

Ignatz, like several others here, I bought a WM18/stand/vice/halogen light and several other bits from Warco last year and shipping cost £132 to S.W.France. All arrived in fine condition with less than a week shipping delay.
Very happy with the Mill.
DaveD

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I think holding tolerances is as much to do with user and tooling as it is with the basic machine. I have a Sieg X3 and can happily make IC engines that run upto 10,000rpm with no seals, gaskets or piston rings on my machine and at the other end of the scale steam engines that will tick over very smoothly on 1 or 2 psi of air.

[Eric CoxParticipant @ericcox50497]

looking at Niels link the HBM BF 25 looks identicle to a Warco wm 14. The cost of the HBM is €1199.99 ( £966 ) and the Warco is €1036 ( £835 ). Even with shipping the warco might work out slightly cheaper.

[IgnatzParticipant @ignatz]

Besides the initial cost, I'm curious about the supposed tolerances of any mill I purchase.

To date, the only company I have found that makes any claims about their tolerances is Optimum in Germany.

They claim that the runout of the spindle on their smaller mills is only 0.015mm (= 0.0005905494 inch)… although I'm sure that bad collet holders and/or tooling could negate that in a heartbeat.

Are there any other companies that make claims regarding the accuracy of their milling machine offerings?

 

 

Edited By Ignatz on 16/06/2018 10:53:30

[Thor 🇳🇴Participant @thor]

Posted by Eric Cox on 16/06/2018 10:01:20:

looking at Niels link the HBM BF 25 looks identicle to a Warco wm 14. The cost of the HBM is €1199.99 ( £966 ) and the Warco is €1036 ( £835 ). Even with shipping the warco might work out slightly cheaper.

The HBM BF 25 is heavier, has a more powerful motor and a MT 3 spindle taper, I have the long table version and it has served me well for 5 years. I still wish I had bought the BF 30 (WM 18). The runout on the spindle taper on my BF 25 is slightly less than 0.01mm

Thor

Edited By Thor on 16/06/2018 10:59:47

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Ignatz on 16/06/2018 10:52:05:

Besides the initial cost, I'm curious about the supposed tolerances of any mill I purchase.

To date, the only company I have found that makes any claims about their tolerances is Optimum in Germany.

They claim that the runout of the spindle on their smaller mills is only 0.015mm (= 0.0005905494 inch)… although I'm sure that bad collet holders and/or tooling could negate that in a heartbeat.

Are there any other companies that make claims regarding the accuracy of their milling machine offerings?

 

 

Edited By Ignatz on 16/06/2018 10:53:30

Have a look at Buck and Hickman.

I'm not sure what to make of Optimum. They appear to be selling the usual kit with more inspections. You might be shelling out for peace of mind rather than a better made or assembled machine. I'd love to know how Optimum compare in practice to the more common rebrandings. Anyone have one?

Dave

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 16/06/2018 12:29:41:

. I'd love to know how Optimum compare in practice to the more common rebrandings. Anyone have one?

Dave

Brian John's lathe springs to mind

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

I'm not sure what to make of Optimum Anyone have one?

IIRC Stefan Gotteswinter on YouTube has one of the larger Optimums. Seems like a reasonable machine that he didn't have to do too much to to get it working as he wanted – which is probably at a higher level than most !

Nigel B

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Jason, I was just thinking the same as I read through the thread. Have you heard from Brian lately?

Ian S C

[Mike E.Participant @mikee-85511]

Have a look on the gandmtools.co.uk site. Currently there are several moderate size single phase milling machines which may be of interest , including a Myford VMB.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Ignatz on 16/06/2018 10:52:05:

They claim that the runout of the spindle on their smaller mills is only 0.015mm (= 0.0005905494 inch)… although I'm sure that bad collet holders and/or tooling could negate that in a heartbeat.

Better than half a thou is pretty much a typical figure for small milling machines.

Most suppliers won't quote a figure because even if tested at a factory in the far east, it can be out of adjustment when it reaches the customer and installation and adjustment are beyond their control.

Neil

[IgnatzParticipant @ignatz]

I'm one step closer to (having to) make a decision on a new mill…

… the low range in this little thing just tore out some gear teeth (ouch! ouch!)

This leaves me with a device that is even more handicapped than before.

By the way, does anyone know if the gears for this old thing can still be obtained? I'd hate to try to sell it on in only semi-working condition.

 

[Thor 🇳🇴Participant @thor]

Posted by Ignatz on 16/06/2018 14:57:43:

By the way, does anyone know if the gears for this old thing can still be obtained? I'd hate to try to sell it on in only semi-working condition.

 

Your old milling machine looks like a Sieg X2, if it is it seems ARC still carry spares – Link.

Thor

 

Edited By Thor on 16/06/2018 16:26:24

[IgnatzParticipant @ignatz]

Thanks, Thor. I'll give it a look later on tonight.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Similar design, but different in several aspects.

Appears to be made by Seiki in Taiwan.

Interesting, they also make a mini-lathe that looks like it is parallel universe where things are superficially similar but really quite different.

I imagine they are based on the same (originally Russian as I understand it) design.

[IgnatzParticipant @ignatz]

Well, I finally got around to disassembling the old mill to see the damage to the gear teeth. Big Ouch! The gears are the plastic acetal kind and didn't take it so kindly when that end mill fetched up on my work-piece. The low-end gears are properly borked: having shed some teeth on the shiftable, intermediate gear as well as the on the main spindle gear.

So far, I've only removed the intermediate gear (12/20 tooth), but it appears to be identical in count and measurement to that for the old Sieg X2 mini mill. Too, it appears that replacement gears are still offered by such places as AET.

…however…

I'm not exactly sure that it is really worth my time and effort to replace the gears on this old mill. Although the CH-10M is more or less the same as the Sieg X2 it has the disadvantage of having aluminum castings, aluminum column and an aluminum table. So if I put in new gears (even the stronger metal versions), even if I put in better main spindle bearings, the mill will still have its basic lack of rigidity as compared to the newer (old) version.

By the way, I happened upon that article by Neil Wyatt, "Improvements to an X2 Mill". (Hats off to you, Neil. You're a prince!) The article explains the mysteries of disassembly very, very well. Nevertheless, I see it is anything but a simple wave-of-the-hand, drop-in exchange.

…so even IF I had the parts in hand – for free – the work hours themselves – along with the preparation – are not inconsiderable. Might just button it up and use it high-end only until I've decided on which larger mill to purchase.

Oh, and a last amusing note:

I don't know this for sure, but I really suspect that this is not the first time this thing has some shed gear teeth and been repaired. I'm making this assumption from the fact that the label across the motor plate was cut through and the top spacer on the spindle – the one with the spindle locking hole – had been inserted upside down so that locking the spindle was kind of… impossible.

Anyway, when I opened up the unit I found it absolutely – and I do mean absolutely – filled up with lithium grease. I dug out something like a soft drink can's worth of the stuff before I could even see anything inside.

I figure that one of the first owners also lost some gear teeth, went through the trouble of replacing them and was so panicked about it happening again that he kind of overdid the lubrication in supposed self-defense.

So now I know why the bearings were always dripping grease when it was running.

Or it could be normal (???). What do I know.

Anyway, feel free to comment or suggest.

Cheers!

 

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