New design of mains plug?

[Johnboy25Participant @johnboy25]

I like this type! (Not) 🤣

[ChrisHParticipant @chrish]

Johnboy25 – seen similar from Dutch contractors working in the UK trying to get their power tools to go, mostly they used matches not big sticks but………… H&S, eat your heart out!

[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

Just repeated what others said, so deleting it!

Edited By Mark Rand on 31/03/2020 01:02:17

[Enough!Participant @enough]

Posted by ChrisH on 30/03/2020 23:58:32:

My question is, if we have to have a fuse in a plug in the UK, why are there no fuses in any plugs on French electrical equipment? (Or is this another one of the one rule for us and another for them and to hell with standardisation across the EU?)

As an outsider, my guess would be that to standardise across the EU would mean such expensive changes and upheaval to entrenched national systems that no nation would agree to it. So they agree to differ instead.

Just a guess though.

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

Bandersnatch – Yes, but there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to have a fused continental plug as an option. Its the same thing for sockets in France – you can't buy them with a switch, instead you have to have a double gang patrice / box and install a separate switch. Just to make life more interesting on the continent, some plugs have a pair of lugs which engage in slots on the sockets, but French sockets don't have the slots, so Dutch and German plugs won't fit French sockets, but French plugs fit Dutch / German sockets – work that one out.

[Anthony KnightsParticipant @anthonyknights16741]

If every socket/light on a radial system had it's own fuse that would be quite a large consumer unit.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

ChrisH,

To answer your question simply (it has been covered in the earlier posts), in the UK the ring main can carry 30A before the cabling starts to warm up seriously. That sort of current, going through a much smaller section of flexible lead would melt the insulation and quite possibly cause a fire, so those flexible leads are protected by a suitable fuse in the plug for that device.

While the radial wiring is protected by the fuse at the distribution board, you would have to ask the french why they do not protect any wiring downstream of the wall socket. Perhaps they only use the same size of conductor in all appliance leads? My 50W soldering iron does not need a heavy supply lead, whereas a 3kW electric fire or an electric cooker requires a much heavier supply after the wall supply switch.

If 30A flexible supply leads were required for UK installations, appliance leads would be much heavier, if they were to be protected by the fuse at the distribution panel.

Two different approaches. Some radial circuits are used in UK domestic wiring, of course.

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

If my house had to have a separate fuse for every socket radially, I would have to build another house to put them in!

I do not like trailing leads everywhere so every room has more than sufficient double switched sockets so that there is always one to hand.

Workshop is different each machine has its own spur, except the drill.

[GeorgineerParticipant @georgineer]

Posted by KWIL on 31/03/2020 09:13:11:

… every room has more than sufficient double switched sockets so that there is always one to hand…

How on earth did you manage that? I rewired my house in the seventies and put double the number of double sockets I thought I could possibly ever want into every room. There still weren't enough, and some were still in the wrong places!

George B.

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Each room has a double either side of each corner and also along the wall as appropriate. Kitchen has 11 for instance (yes not a small kitchen). There are 3 house Ring mains, day rooms ,kitchen and bedrooms. In addition the garage and workshop has a ring main (+ radials), Family and utility has another. These latter rooms are "downstairs" (sloping site). Lighting is similarly split and the security lights are also separate. Dual Dis boards up and down plus incoming master dis board which splits for both and also serves workshop radials. Not a rewire but built in during construction.. At last count there were 160 plus socket locations including the loft which service the aerial amplifiers. OTT maybe but why not?

Edited By KWIL on 31/03/2020 11:47:00

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

This is a photo of our fuse box for a French 2 bed house. I have to have 3 phase because I have a 950watt under floor heating in the kitchen – REGULATIONS !!!

Besides being 3 phase, there has to be a lightning protection device (which isn't fast enough to protect things like computers and an additional fuse box which services an external electric pump – REGULATIONS.

And not a single ring main or fused plug elsewhere. All circuits are radials with no spurs.

Ps. the mantles are for the oil lamps when we have power cuts.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by ChrisH on 30/03/2020 23:58:32:

Coming in on this thread very late in the day and I admit I have not read all the posts,

My question is, if we have to have a fuse in a plug in the UK, why are there no fuses in any plugs on French electrical equipment?

I humbly refer the gentleman to the posts wot he has not read

Neil

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Posted by ChrisH on 30/03/2020 23:58:32:

Coming in on this thread very late in the day and I admit I have not read all the posts, but, I see several posts say if a plug (in the UK) does not have an intergral fuse it's illegal, and that the kit needs a CE mark, which I understand all electrical equipment certified for use within the European Union must have. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

My question is, if we have to have a fuse in a plug in the UK, why are there no fuses in any plugs on French electrical equipment? (Or is this another one of the one rule for us and another for them and to hell with standardisation across the EU?) And following on from there, why are all domestic UK electrical power circuits ring mains and in France they are radial. And why in the UK do we use flat twin and earth cable with the earth wire a smaller diameter than the others, but in France earth, live and neutral wires must all be of the same diameter (UK flat twin and earth is not allowed to be used in France)?

I am not trying to make any points here at all, I really just do not understand these things and would be grateful if anyone could explain! I thought the whole point of the EU (when we were in it) was that all had to follow the same rules, when evidently there are differences and we didn't.

Chris.

Ho Humm!

A few points. CE markings essentially allow for 'sale within the EU' as complying to recognised EU standards.

For example an IEC cable suitable for connection to French installation wiring will not have a fuse but cannot be plugged into UK buildings. The reverse applies. Yes you can get adaptors but that is 'after the fact' and the original lead remains complient.

Buildings are not sold/shipped internationally so installed wiring is compliant to local nation wiring codes. Fixed installations are not traded accross borders.

The CE marking system is for goods traded within the EU, houses are not CE marked.

As far as following the 'rules', the 'rules' are concerned with the areas common to all which is clearly advantageous as far as trade is concerned. There are other areas where 'rules' apply such as environment, employment government aid to buissness etc. The advantage of these is that each country operates the same regime which disadvantages no single country amongst the rest. (Flat playing field).

Some of the pressure to leave is concerned with that last comment. One can either rest content knowing that your continental competitors face the same overheads as you, or you can be discontent because you cannot gain an advantage. (Other than the normal, be more efficient, invent better stuff and the like).

In a nutshall its a glass half full or half empty question. It's up to you to make your choice.

I have been quite carefull to stay neutral in this post. The last thing we need to do now is start arguing over the EU again.

regards Martin

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by ChrisH on 30/03/2020 23:58:32:

…

My question is, if we have to have a fuse in a plug in the UK, why are there no fuses in any plugs on French electrical equipment? (Or is this another one of the one rule for us and another for them and to hell with standardisation across the EU?) …

… I thought the whole point of the EU (when we were in it) was that all had to follow the same rules, when evidently there are differences and we didn't.

Chris.

…

EU rules are aimed at promoting trade, not at enforcing particular technical solutions. It's forbidden for countries to deliberately come up with technical or other obstacles that prevent one EU member from trading with another.

In the case of BS1363 plugs, there's no consistent obstacle to trade because our plugs can be fitted to their equipment and vice versa. Appliances don't care if the power is from a ring or a spur. It's not difficult to make vacuum cleaners for 230vac 50Hz or 110vac 60Hz by just by swapping the motor, or the electronics. Many electronics devices, like laptops, can be plugged in almost anywhere in the world – their power supplies are clever enough to automatically deal with anything from 230V 50Hz to 110V 60Hz. The UK driving on the left does not stop Peugeot making and selling cars here, nor does driving on the right stop us selling them British made cars. Food, apart from criminal abuse, is safely prepared to a common standard across Europe.

However, we live in an complicated world. The EU allows member states to exercise derogations where local circumstances justify it. For example, the UK exercised a derogation on attempts to equalise working hours across Europe – it was decided Englishmen like working longer than Germans rather than working harder to catch up! The EU is much tougher on nations that attempt to distort trade, such as governments subsidising uncompetitive industries, or enacting unfair tariffs, border controls and tax breaks. (As practised by the USA!)

But technical solutions have to meet consistent safety standards. French domestic electrical systems do it with fused spurs, UK does it with a fused ring and fused plugs.

The difficulty with EU Trade rules is they leak into politics. Trade within Europe is enhanced if everyone uses the same currency, but there are nostalgic and practical reasons for the UK to stick with the Pound rather than adopting the Euro, because we also trade with the rest of the world.

Other examples of UK reluctance are much less sensible: sticking with Imperial measure is almost entirely nostalgic. Metric may make engineering and scientific calculations easier and simplify commerce but no way does that alter tired old grandads view that nothing new should ever happen again.

Dave

[Gerard O’TooleParticipant @gerardotoole60348]

I hope I am not being pedantic, but CE markings apply to EEA not just the EU

However I think it is incorrect to place a CE marking on a UK plug. See here

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Coming late bu a few comments

1/ SOD – excellent expalnation.

2/ Electrical wiring parts ad mains plugs are not CE marked nor should they be (componens no articles)

3/ In UK plugs must be approved to BS1363. use of non-eu plugs with adaptors in not acceptable.

4/ It is the IMPORTERS responsibility to ensure compliance. If you buy something from China and then complain about compliance you are complaining about yourself.

5/ The OP's unit must be switchmode to met the ratings in the size.

6/ Testing to "20M" is not an indication unless you are using a 1000V insulation tester.

7/ Personally I won't buy ANY mains powered item that is shipped from the far east or where an ebay seller has a far eastern address even if they ship from the UK.

It probably won't happen, but if you buy a mains powered item on banggood or the like and it burns the house down your insurance company could have grounds to reject a claim .

Robert G8RPI>

[herbert punterParticipant @herbertpunter99795]

It is allowed to supply an EU plug with a UK adapter if the adapter cannot be removed or cannot be removed without the use of a tool.

Bert

[Roger BParticipant @rogerb61624]

Lots of things being written on domestic power distribution, not all of which are accurate.

In the beginning properties were wired with a few sockets on radial circuits. Most countries developed their own plug and socket systems. The UK had the round pin 2A, 5A and 15A plugs in two and 3 pin versions. The Germanic countries and a few others had a 16A two round pins to which they later added the side earth connections (Schutzkontakt – hence the name Schuko). The French speaking lands went for two pins and later added an inverted earth pin. You can plug a French plug into a Schuko but you don’t have an earth. The Italians put the earth in the middle and have 10A and 16A versions. The Swiss have a 10A version with an offset earth. The Europeans tended to be a radial circuit per room feeding the lights and sockets. The UK tended to keep sockets and lighting different. In all these cases the fuse for the radial circuit protected the flexible cable against short circuits as long as it was above a specified minimum size. The appliance itself had to protect against overloads, either by making them unlikely or by having an internal fuse.

Then the UK decided to change the system and I will cynically say that this was to make the installation as cheap as possible for the builders and push the costs onto the occupants. Rather than a radial circuit per room (or group of small rooms) they decided on a power circuit and a lighting circuit, one of each in a small property and being duplicated as required in larger ones. To minimise the cost of cable the lighting circuits were 6A with 1mm2 cable and they came up with the ring final circuit for the power circuits. The 2.5mm2 cable with a reduced size uninsulated earth conductor with 30/32A protection was chosen together with fused plugs of a completely new design with rectangular rather than round pins. This left the occupants to buy large heavy 3 pin plugs with an inbuilt fuse to protect the flexible cable rather than a much smaller lighter often 2 pin plug as used elsewhere. The similarities between the mainland systems allowed the development of the 2 pin Europlug which can be used all over Europe except the UK and is ideal for small electronic devices.

The UK carries the legacy of a wiring system which might have been ok when perhaps a couple of electric fires, a vacuum cleaner, a hairdryer, a kettle and the telly were all that were plugged in. Now in the UK the plethora of small electronic devices require a plug larger than themselves and consumes far more materials than necessary. The UK 13A plug is also hazardous due to it’s design. The right angle design means it won’t easily come out if you trip on the wire rather than straight designs. It is heavy and has caused many injuries where people lifted appliances off the top of cupboard or high shelve and were hit by the following plug. Standing on the upturned pins is worse than standing on Lego bricks without shoes. A Europlug is much less unpleasant. Finally the connections to the fuse tend to overheat if the plug is run near it’s 13A rating which can result in the plug softening and the live pin remaining in the socket, still live, when the plug is removed.

Roger

[Maurice TaylorParticipant @mauricetaylor82093]

Can anybody remember why we changed from red and black wires to brown and blue for live and neutral ? I think this was approx 50 years ago for flex but only 15 years ago for twin and earth.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

I’ve never come across that last problem of plugs softening. Of course, that could not occur when the plugs were made of thermosetting plastic – ie bakelite.🙂

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Roger B on 31/03/2020 15:30:42:

…The UK 13A plug is also hazardous due to it’s design. The right angle design means it won’t easily come out if you trip on the wire rather than straight designs. It is heavy and has caused many injuries where people lifted appliances off the top of cupboard or high shelve and were hit by the following plug. Standing on the upturned pins is worse than standing on Lego bricks without shoes …

Unfair I agree but Roger's comments reminded me of a spoof consumer programme that made me laugh years ago! Remember Esther Rantzen enraged about faulty goods, before moving on to dogs that say 'sausages', vegetables resembling genitalia, and Odd Odes?

In the spoof a journalist fulminated about the bad design of an AK47 assault rifle because a toddler might hurt himself on the nasty sharp front sight. "So we rang the Gas Board, and they claimed 'This is nothing to do with us'…"

Roger's quite right about 13A plugs though. I stood on one after it bounced off my head, ouch. Fortunately, we Brits are all real men, quite unconcerned about mere agony! When I was 12 Armstrong Minor lost 4 fingers to the school table saw. I asked him if it hurt and he replied 'Only when I laugh'.

Dave

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Posted by Maurice Taylor on 31/03/2020 16:16:52:

Can anybody remember why we changed from red and black wires to brown and blue for live and neutral ? I think this was approx 50 years ago for flex but only 15 years ago for twin and earth.

Harmonisation with Europe, all the wiring colours changed including 3ph and DC. You can go into a BT exch and see warning labels everywhere with blue cable on both live and 0V depending on date of install.

Except Europe mostly ignored it.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Posted by herbert punter on 31/03/2020 13:54:38:

It is allowed to supply an EU plug with a UK adapter if the adapter cannot be removed or cannot be removed without the use of a tool.

Bert

Theres always an exception…..
Those "adaptors" are fused, only usable on double inculated appliances and approved and are more of a plug that that need a 2 pin 4mm plug fitted first.

Robert G8RPI.

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember19781]

[This posting has been removed]

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Posted by Maurice Taylor on 31/03/2020 16:16:52:

Can anybody remember why we changed from red and black wires to brown and blue for live and neutral ? I think this was approx 50 years ago for flex but only 15 years ago for twin and earth.

Twas long before the EU or even EEC. The reason was because red-geen colour blindness id fairly common and swapping over the red and green on a item with exposed metal meant the metal was live. A lot of peopl were electrocuted as a result.

Roert G8RPI,

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