Milling Machines

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

Same here. I do the bulk of my drilling on the mill now. The pillar drill has cobwebs on it.

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

Hi Steve,

What sort of work do you intend doing with your mill, and do you intend to invest alt in tooling, or just get enough to get by.

Neil

[steve clark 2Participant @steveclark2]

Posted by Bazyle on 15/01/2013 17:13:35:

Slow down! Please don't be offended but I think your level of knowledge is not yet enough to wisely commit on a major budget item unless you are well into the 'no child allowance' income bracket. More time to read the umpteen threads on just this forum will save you money and give more satisfaction in the long run.
Which day are you at the show? There are lots of club stands plus SMEE who can give you face to face advice which may help or be as conflicting as above but you can cover much more in minutes in a conversation.
On day one you only need one half inch collet and one half inch (or metric equivalent) slot drill (more vesatile than end mill). So don't cut the machine budget to pay for tooling which can wait. You often get bundled tooling with it but don't let that sway you. Remember like the supermarket offers it's there to dull your judgement.

(China production. many many parts factories supply fewer but multiple integrators. Just like cars and you know all hatchbacks look nearly the same and all use the same brakes etc.)

I've been looking at such machines, on/off for over a year now, been to a show and spoken to a few people, they all say that thier machine and back up service is the best, sometimes the more you research a subject the more it becomes blurred, just look at the conflicting views from folk on here, sooner or later you have to bite the bullet and buy one.

Edited By steve clark 2 on 15/01/2013 20:22:38

[steve clark 2Participant @steveclark2]

Posted by Stub Mandrel on 15/01/2013 19:22:30:

Hi Steve,

What sort of work do you intend doing with your mill, and do you intend to invest alt in tooling, or just get enough to get by.

Neil

I can't give you a specific answer to the first question, has I've said before, does it really matter anyway? when my space & budget dictates that I can only buy this size of mill period, surely they will all only be able to handle smaller/lighter jobs.

Yes, I will need some cutters, who can buy them all when starting out? Just a few at first to get me started.

[Anonymous]

Posted by Old School on 15/01/2013 18:02:06:

Andrew J well you learn something every day Thanks

Olly,

No problem; as to why you'd want a collet alignment screw I don't know. On my secondhand vertical mill (varispeed head Bridgeport) the screw had been sheared off before I bought the mill. I've never bothered to replace the screw, and haven't missed it.

Regards,

Andrew

[JonParticipant @jon]

If your going to the show do some bargaining. In fact you dont need to, just aproach in the shop should be looking for 30 to 40% either in tools thrown in or discount ie the Ama 45 machine £3800+ have had dearer better machine Super Lux for others at £1850 plus tooling. Know your prices.

Noticed some familiar machines in an Advertisement link on here, same machine sold by others around 25% cheaper, so know your prices.

Give me R8 any day, next best MT3. Even using Bridgeports with finger collets with sheared peg in R8 (not me) they dont slip. 1/4 of a rev undo, tap it and out pops cutter same with MT2 and MT3. Try that with ER types they take an eternity and two pair of hands ammongst other problems. 10secs to change a cutter and collet in R8, ER around 3 minutes if can get the thing undone.

[steve clark 2Participant @steveclark2]

Thanks guys, well the general vote for R8 has convinced me to go for that. It's just the rest I'm still unsure about. LOL

[steve clark 2Participant @steveclark2]

Now the fact I've plumped for R8 means that certain machines are out, like the Warco right?

[Bob PerkinsParticipant @bobperkins67044]

Consider a SX2 plus from arc. I'm really pleased with mine. Small machines will always have many limitations. I too had space and funding limitations and find this a good comprimise.

[Keith LongParticipant @keithlong89920]

I remeber reading somewhere else that the screw in the side of the R8 collet was to stop it rotating in the spindle as you tighten up the draw bar. It would make sense as the collet disappears just about flush and you'd have nothing to hold. The alignment function might be a bonus in that it will ensure a consistent placement.

Keith

[steve clark 2Participant @steveclark2]

Posted by Bob Perkins on 15/01/2013 21:16:48:

Consider a SX2 plus from arc. I'm really pleased with mine. Small machines will always have many limitations. I too had space and funding limitations and find this a good comprimise.

Yes, I will do. What do you make of their extra charge/service of stripping it down/putting it together?

Others I have spoke to have thought that it's bang out of order, not really necessary if you are fairly competent with a set of spanners.

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

I would suggest the SX2 as well, not least because Arc will give you enough free toys to play with to keep you happy for a month or two if you buy it now, and they have excellent customer service IME (not to say others don't).

I think Arc have changed their policy on the 'preparation service', but as I recall it was optional and they gave advice on how to do it yourself.

Neil

[SteambuffParticipant @steambuff]

I don't think ArcEuro offer the 'Preperation" service any more.

Take a look on their Web Site for their offer on the SX2

Dave

[NJHParticipant @njh]

I seem to remember Ketan (Mr Arc Euro Trade) posting on this forum recently that the preparation service is no longer available. I think that he said too that they will not be attending the show. If you are interested in Arc machines why not give him a call. He often puts his head above the parapet here and would no doubt give you information on their offers.

cheers

Norman

[Bob PerkinsParticipant @bobperkins67044]

Honestly, mine pretty well ran out of the box. I removed the table, wiped loads of protective grease off and cleaned a few burrs of the gib strips. Nothing more than a Haynes 1 spanner job. I have since added a set of DROs and a gas sping conversion kit. The DROs have transformed its capability. Save your cash for all the bits you'll find you need once you start to use it. I bought collets, clamp set and a vice. I had a range of cutters but found I only needed 3 collets.

Bob P

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Steambuff on 15/01/2013 21:40:12:

I don't think ArcEuro offer the 'Preperation" service any more.

Take a look on their Web Site for their offer on the SX2

Dave

For reference: Ketan's post was on this thread

14-Dec-2012

MichaelG.

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Posted by Old School on 15/01/2013 13:03:13:

Steve

………………………….The main advantage is R8 tooling has a key way in it does not slip in the machine and it does not have to pulled up as tight with draw bar as mt tooling and consequentially you dont have to hit the draw bar as hard to release the tooling.

Olly

Hi Steve,

I don't know if this has been pointed out by others but RE taper is not a collet system it is an alternative taper system to Morse tapers. The 'E' system of collets are used in holders or chucks which can have Morse or R8 tapers (there are other systems but these two are the most common).

The ER collet systems are useful because they can hold a range of size in each collet, unlike other less versatile systems. Hence a 6mm collet can hold work or cutters between 5 and 6mm because of the 'compressibility' of the collet. The system can be used to hold work or tools so is very versatile. So if you have an E collet chuck with a few collets for the milling machine that is really all the toolholding you need. There is no need for a different 'milling' chuck. My MT3, E32 chuck is hardly ever removed from the milling machine and it can hold all but my largest drills and milling cutters. I have a seperate lathe collet holder which I can use for much of my turning when I need accurate concentricity and repeatability

As another 'old schooler' I can honestly say that I never have to do more than nip up the drawbar in my milling machine with an MT3 taper housing and my MT2 drilling machine has never dropped it's chuck or the large MT drills I sometimes use and the MT taper in my lathe headstock and tailstock have never let me down.

The problems with morse tapers combined with drawbars is that folk tend to tighten them with too much force and consequently need to hammer the drawbar to free the taper. Worst problem is that they then use a steel hammer instead of a copper one (or similar) to bash the poor thing when struggling to remove the chuck. In all my years of machining I have usually just had to give the drawbar a light rap to release it, only rarely had to use a lot of force but have used a copper hammer and caused no damage to the machine. Then again I was taught in the toolroom but did witness a few gorillas in the production machine shop who thought that they had to use a lump hammer on every spanner and locking lever in sight.

The advantage in the home workshop of MTs is that tooling is common to lathe, drilling and milling machines, I can transfer my E32 collets and other tooling from lathe to milling machine or drilling machine with ease. No need for duplicate collet chucks.

My advice as to actual machine is to get the most solid you can, I have the equivalent of the Warco WM18 with a similar pressed steel stand and find it perfectly adequate and solid when bolted down. It's not a patch on my mate's Bridgeport but it does what I need without complaint.

Regards

T

Edited By Terryd on 16/01/2013 08:44:41

[Phil AshmanParticipant @philashman88468]

I have a WM-16, and find that the stand is ok. I couldn't bolt it to the floor, so I bolted it to the wall instead, and it's fine. One of the reasons I chose this mill was because it had MT2 taper, and so all the lathe stuff is interchangeable with the mill. The drawbar on these mills unscrews against a collar screwed onto the end of the spindle, pushing the taper out, so you never have to bash the end of the drawbar with a hammer.

Phil

[Bob PerkinsParticipant @bobperkins67044]

There are R8 to MT2 adaptors available for a few quid.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by steve clark 2 on 15/01/2013 12:30:01:

Thanks guys, a can of worms it sure is isn't it.

One company I spoke to disputes the thinking that these machines are made by a couple of factories in China, if they were then there would be less differences in wattage motors for example from one make/model to another. Also other related parts may well not fit what appears to be a 'twin' machine.

I dont quite understand what you mean. Depending on what machine you want, there are many makers of mini-mill and mini-lathe. Motor sizes, wattage, length and type of bed for lathe, and different lengths of table etc. for mills, depends on what the importer wants out of each manufacturers range. Some parts will be different on 'twin' machines. eg. lathe mini-lathe from SIEG has a different bed from the one manufactured by some other factory. Saddles may be different.

Ketan at ARC.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by steve clark 2 on 15/01/2013 12:31:43:

I forgot to say, it's shocking that you can't rely on the holes being drilled in the right place on such a machine.

Who fed you this rubbish ?

Ketan at ARC

Correction: I misread the meaning here. Yes they can be variable

Edited By Ketan Swali on 16/01/2013 13:22:38

Edited By Ketan Swali on 16/01/2013 13:26:21

Edited By Ketan Swali on 16/01/2013 13:27:02

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by mechman48 on 15/01/2013 15:43:55:

I can only offer my opinion, take a look for yourself at :

http://www.realbull-machine.com/en/

http://www.mini-lathe.com/Mini_lathe/Sieg/Sieg.htm

On the Seig site, quote.. "This is the factory that makes many of the versions of the mini-lathe, mini-mill and many other machine tools that so many of us enjoy using."

Take a good look through & you will see many versions of what we ME guys buy; have also taken a comment from the mini-lathe forum site ..

Mini-Lathe Product & Book Reviews.

 

‘The great majority of mini-lathes sold in the U.S. and worldwide are made by Sieg in Shanghai, China. They are re-branded by several vendors, painted in a variety of colors and sold with various combinations of accessories and with four bed lengths: 8", 12", 14" and 16", but all are basically the same lathe (Well, ok, the Micro-Mark version is kinda unique…). A very similar lathe, made by Real Bull in China, makes up the rest of the market’.

By reference to the above the following are made by the same co.

Lathes:

Big Dog 7×14

Grizzly 7×12

Harbor Freight 7×10

Homier 7×12 (old style)

Homier 7×12 (new style)

Homier 7×12 (comparison)

Micro-Mark 7×16 with brushless DC motor

Sieg SC2 7×12 Lathe with brushless DC motor

Sieg SC4 8×17 Lathe with brushless DC motor

Sieg C6 10×22 Lathe

So in the same context I can dispute the dealers comments, again only offering my opinion, make of it what you will, at the end of the day you will purchase whatever make, size etc, you decide suits your needs & budget. Happy hunting & enjoy what you get.

Cheers

George

 

The original Realbull went bankrupt a few years ago. Various people left it and started their own small units, including Realbull Mark II. So, there are now at least three makers of mini-mill and mini-lathe in that area alone.

Some of what is said above is marketing 'stuff' fed in the American market. Big Dog does not buy from SIEG. Most of the others including Micro-Mark do. Each have their own specification for what they want. Now and then, some of them digress from SIEG to experiment with other factories.

Ketan at ARC.

Edited By Ketan Swali on 16/01/2013 13:28:55

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by steve clark 2 on 15/01/2013 21:27:34:

Posted by Bob Perkins on 15/01/2013 21:16:48:

Consider a SX2 plus from arc. I'm really pleased with mine. Small machines will always have many limitations. I too had space and funding limitations and find this a good comprimise.

Yes, I will do. What do you make of their extra charge/service of stripping it down/putting it together?

Others I have spoke to have thought that it's bang out of order, not really necessary if you are fairly competent with a set of spanners.

Good example of why we dont do shows, as covered elsewhere on another topic on this forum. There are a lot of people out there who are not compitent with a set of spanners, including me!. Everyone chooses to believe what they want to. This is also one of the reasons why we removed the preparation service too.

At present, simply put, price dictates your decision, and I wish you the best of luck with it.

Ketan at ARC.

[alan smith 6Participant @alansmith6]

Ketan,

I`m considering buying a small chinese milling machine such as your X2 mill as I need something small to go in the spare bedroom. The main worry that I have is the electronic board controlling the motor. They are expensive to replace and certainly don`t last forever.

What would be the situation in five to ten years time when the mill is no longer in production, how could one source a new one?

Alan

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by alan smith 6 on 16/01/2013 13:52:14:

Ketan,

I`m considering buying a small chinese milling machine such as your X2 mill as I need something small to go in the spare bedroom. The main worry that I have is the electronic board controlling the motor. They are expensive to replace and certainly don`t last forever.

What would be the situation in five to ten years time when the mill is no longer in production, how could one source a new one?

Alan

Hi Alan,

So far we have been selling the brushless motor version machines for between two to three years, depending on which machine it is. Most of the boards on the brushless machines have been found to be more up to the job of dealing with overload than the brushed versions. This doesn't mean that one should overload!. But as you say, they can be expensive to replace, and we do not have a long enough life history on them to make a judgement for how long the board will last.

These boards have now been around for about five years, even though we have adopted them for between two to three years, after programing modifications were made on the board to deal with torque. The brushed motor version models have been around for more than 20 years, with the boards which are marked FC…or XMT….. and they are still available. Keeping this history in mind, I would think that the boards for the brushless motor versions should be around in five or ten years time.

But, I cannot say with certainty who or what or which company will or will not be around in five to ten years time. I cannot say what progress in technology will have been made by then.

If we were to say that we are faced with the situation today with a very old machine, and if there was no replacement board available, then today I would direct potential buyers to consider installing a three phase motor and inverter to their machine. This is often done with Myfords. With advancement in technology, this solution is probably cheaper and better solution than trying to replace the original old motor, and bring the machine up to date?

Ketan at ARC.

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