Milling machine X and Y axis out of square

[Keith CooperParticipant @keithcooper70585]

Can anyone please help!

Had my Warco WM 18 now for just over a year ….as workshop not complete.When I came to commission machine a week ago tried to set X axis datum on table with DTI, all OK then tryed to check Y axis found to be out! Basicly by setting either axis it makes the other incorrect, I have conclued that they are not square. In the test record sheet supplied with the machine its been recorded as squareness as 0.02mm over 150mm, mine works out at 0.31mm.

Please could anyone suggest what I could do to improve this.

Many thanks

Keith

[Keith CooperParticipant @keithcooper70585]

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Hi Keith,

Welcome to the forum,

I'm a bit confused as to what you are actually measuring. Is it the squareness of the movement of the table in X and Y directions with respect to each other or the squareness of X and Y travel to the axis of the mill spindle.

Neil

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 11/02/2014 19:48:01

[mechman48Participant @mechman48]

Hi Keith

Are you trying to 'tram' your mill & are you using DTI ?

George

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

My FB2 clone has a similar error – but not as large as yours (around 0.08mm error in 130mm Y travel)

The remedy for my machine is to re-machine (or, more likely, scrape in this case) the Y axis saddle "fast side" dovetail face so that it is properly square to the the X axis "fast side", the "fast side" being the guide face opposite the gib strip.

I would try approaching Warco first & explain the situation – they may be willing to assist even though the machine may be technically out of warranty.

Nigel B.

[Steve WithnellParticipant @stevewithnell34426]

Can you post any photo's of the setup you are using to make the measurements? One showing x axis set up and one showing y axis setup would be good.

Steve

[Keith CooperParticipant @keithcooper70585]

Thanks guys for your response I will try and take some photo's of my setup to try and demonstate my problem.

As Neil suggests it the squareness of the movement of the table of X and Y travel to the axis of the mill spindle, if I set X to as close to zero as possible over I'm the check Y over the same distance then I get an error of 0.31, I have tried different methods of checking this and all give me almost the same error. The only conclusion that I can come up with is that the cross slide (machined casting) is out of square …..I am reluctant to strip machine down to get it checked for now but cannot think what else it could be.

Cannot as yet contact Warco tech dept person,s unavailable.

Again many thanks for any help

Keith

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Hi Keith,

It sounds like you are trying to 'tram' the mill. Pictures of how you are measuring things and what you are doing to adjust them will help.

use the links at the top of the page to create an album to put the pictures in. Then let us know what you've done.

Neil

[Gone AwayParticipant @goneaway]

Raises another interesting issue and one that I've wondered about before. We expend a lot of effort in tramming the heads of our mills, particularly with the swing heads on many of the small mills. But we seem to assume and accept the perpendicularity of the X and Y feeds – with respect to each other – which is what I originally thought this thread was about

Given that most of these mills are made in the Far East with, often, indifferent quality control that might be quite an assumption. Not that there's likely much we can do about it anyway …. at least without access to a second mill to re-machine the slideways.

[NobbyParticipant @nobby]

Hi
I  wonder how you would check that the Y is square with the X ie cross feed table to the length table ?
have I opened a can of worms . ? or a new thread ?
Nobby

Edited By Nobby on 12/02/2014 22:20:00

[old AlParticipant @oldal]

Give us a clue, whats 'tramming'

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Nobby on 12/02/2014 22:19:34:

I wonder how you would check that the Y is square with the X ie cross feed table to the length table ?
have I opened a can of worms . ? or a new thread ?

.

Nobby,

Like OMG, I thought that was what the original post was about.

… or rather, I thought Keith had already done the check, and was asking for help regarding how to fix the error.

Having read the later posts, I'm less sure of that. … Hopefully all will be clear when we see Keith's photos.

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 12/02/2014 22:37:34

[NobbyParticipant @nobby]

Hi Old AL
Tramming is when you square the head up with the machine table . on say a Bridgeport turret mill .
 Same as keith i wondered how to check Y with X ?
Nobby

Edited By Nobby on 12/02/2014 22:46:47

[ian cableParticipant @iancable23486]

all you need to do to check x to y angle is clamp a piece of plate to your table,just clock the rear edge, anything will do providing its relitivly flat .Plung in a sharp cutter about 3mm deep, machine slot from front to back then either left or right ,take the plate of the machine, hold the back edge that's been clocked against a verticle square (angle plate),then run the finger of your dti along the front to back slot that way you get an accurate machined angle then use your zeus book to find 1 the angle 2 the run out .never heard of tramming

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by Nobby on 12/02/2014 22:46:03:

Same as keith i wondered how to check Y with X ?
Nobby

Simple,

You bolt a square to the table or known square block and adjust one side so that it reads 0 – 0 as you travel in the X axis.

You then check in the Y and if everything is OK it should also read 0 – 0 but if the castings are out then you will get the reading displayed over the Y travel.

[Gone AwayParticipant @goneaway]

Posted by ian cable on 12/02/2014 22:48:31:

never heard of tramming

 

It's a common enough term, Ian. Stick ' tramming mill ' into a Google search.

As far as checking it goes, why not just clamp the angle plate to the mill (faces vertical) use a clock to align one face then check the runout on the perpendicular face. (In fact, you probably don't even need to clamp it if you're careful.)

Edited By OMG on 12/02/2014 23:14:30

[I.M. OUTAHEREParticipant @i-m-outahere]

Hi Keith,

Your wm18 is similar to my hafco unit and if I'm guessing correctly you are trying to set up the surface of the table in the x & y axis to be square to the spindle or quill – aka tramming .

If so you need to pay attention to some minor things that I found were causing a similar problem to my mill.

As it is a dovetail column machine make sure the gibb adjustment on the column are snug as the head can hang down on the column if they are loose and tighten the locking bolts/knobs on the side as well.

Check the mating surfaces between the column and the base as mine had some swarf under there that knocked the column out of wack and also the surfaces between the two mating surfaces for the head swivel and nip the nuts / bolts up but not so tight that a light tap with a rubber mallet won't move it ( you fully tighten after tramming and re check for any movement that may have occurred when tightening the nuts – it happens and is annoying but that's life !

Make sure the table is locked down( x&y axis) so it takes up any play and once you have the dial gauge lowered into position lock the quill

Make sure the indicator mounting is not moving as the adjustable types of indicator bases can move and that's why I use a simple piece of 6mm dia rod with a 90deg bend on one end ( goes in the chuck)and the other end is turned down to fit through the mounting hole on my dial gauge and threaded for a locking nut – simple and rigid .

You can now tram the head to your hearts content !

If your problem is with the x axis not being at 90 deg to the y axis then check the gibb adjustments on the table then mount up an angle plate on its end so one face is parallel to the x axis and tram this to read zero on your dial gauge /indicator as you wind the handle back and forth.

Once this reads as close to zero movement as possible simply adjust the dial gauge / indicator so it can read the other face and you should have zero movement of the gauge or close to it .

If there is something wrong here there could be a burr somewhere on the dovetails so you would need to strip the table down and check it over.

Another thing that can happen is table climb and to check this simply use a nice thick parallel set it up on the axis you wish to check ( by eye is good enough but you can use the dial gauge to get it perfect if you want ) then run a dial gauge mounted to the head across the top by winding the appropriate handle ( x or y ) and there should be zero movement of the dial gauge .

Fixing table climb or the x/y axis not being at 90deg I think would need some experience with scraping and unless you can track it down to a burr or small high spot I would not attempt it without expert guidance as you can make matters worse very easily .

Have a look around on youtube and look for tubal cain or mr pete 222 (same person) I'm sure he did a few videos of mill tramming .

And by "close to zero I mean .002 inch or less – preferably less !

 

Ian

P.S i had to edit 3 times to kill the pesky winking smiley face that I did not put there ! 

 

Edited By SLOTDRILLER on 13/02/2014 01:07:46

Edited By SLOTDRILLER on 13/02/2014 01:08:45

Edited By SLOTDRILLER on 13/02/2014 01:11:51

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by SLOTDRILLER on 13/02/2014 01:04:25:

Have a look around on youtube and look for tubal cain

You must mean Tubalcain. Tubal Cain (Tom Walshore) who wrote many excellent ME books and articles died at the end of the last century.

Russell.

[ian cableParticipant @iancable23486]

ha ha I new what nod was,just never heard of tramming (,so ive learned) the reason I said try milling the slot was that under the force of the cutter It will push the table out of square (definite movement).

[Nigel BennettParticipant @nigelbennett69913]

To be pedantic, Russell, Tubal Cain was Tom Walshaw. Better results from in internet search!

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

The original was a character from the Bible who was described as a metal worker. It would be sadder if the American called himself Tom Walshaw.

Martin

[old AlParticipant @oldal]

Thanks for letting me know what tramming is. Never used it as a term in any of the toolrooms I worked in and have done it countless times on my own Bridgeport. Now I know what im doing!. No, seriously, keep the info flowing, you never know where your knowledge will stick or come from and that makes sites like this so good.

[ian cableParticipant @iancable23486]

Tom D Walshaw aka tubal cane model engineer of the highest order 1912 to 1998

[I.M. OUTAHEREParticipant @i-m-outahere]

 

I was also confused when I watched the first TubalCain video on YouTube as I was expecting a British accent !

I suppose any one can call themselves what ever they want on YouTube .

Tubal Cain (AKA MR PETE 222 ) has many videos on YouTube possibly a hundred ? Maybe more?

Another good one too watch is by turn wright enterprises he has heaps also and does some amazing things in his shop.

Ian

Edited By SLOTDRILLER on 13/02/2014 16:29:23

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

At a pure guess tramming possibly comes from trammeling (to use a trammel). Rotating one point round another connected by a bar. Which is pretty much what you do when you rotate a dial indicator round an axis (spindle) to check for perpendicularity.

Martin

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