Milling in the lathe – Vertical slide

[Chris12Participant @chris12]

Hi,

 

just received my new lathe, a Chester DV8S. So far, no bad surprise 🙂

 

I’m looking at the options to do some light milling on it, until I get a proper milling machine. I was wondering how to attach the vertical slide to the lathe (for example, this one : https://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Machines-Accessories/Lathe-Accessories/Vertical-Slides/Vertical-Slide-5×4-Fixed)

 

Is it ok to use the the screws from the compound slide ?

Many articles online explain how to attach a vertical slide to the cross slide by drilling/tapping holes, however i dont have a mill (obviously) nor a drill. Thus my machining options are right now very limited.

 

Thanks for any feedback !

Chris

 

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Using the two fixings for the topslide would work OK, Subject to how far to the left that puts the vertical slide I might be tempted to come up with a way to add a bit more clamping or reposition the holes in the vertical slide’s base. Post a photo of it fitted using those two studs.

There are also times when milling is better carried out with the work clamped to the cross slide and as yours is not slotted worth thinking about making a clamping plate to fit on top but that can come later.

[Andrew CrowParticipant @andrewcrow91475]

Hi Chris, you could possibly use a piece of flat plate steel bolted to the cross slide using the two fixing bolts you already have, then drill and tap that to suit your vertical slide. May not be perfect but at least you wouldn’t initially have to drill and tap your cross slide.

Andy

[Charles LamontParticipant @charleslamont71117]

While those screws are fine for holding the topslide, they look a little underwhelming for holding the vertical slide. It is not a matter of the the strength of the mounting, which would be perfectly adequate, but the rigidity. If you could make (or even buy) another pair so that you have four in all, I think that could give you a much stiffer arrangement.

[Chris12Participant @chris12]

Thanks all for the feedback, much appreciated.

 

@Jason : I do not have a vertical slide yet. Wanted to have some inputs before buying one. Any recommendation ?

@Andy & Charles : I didnt think about making a plate to go between the cross slide and the vertical slide. This is a very good idea and should be easy enough to make. and yes, adding 2 more screws sounds a sensible idea.

 

Many thanks !!

Chris

 

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

My advice is don’t!  Milling on a lathe, especially a small one,  is extremely limited compared with a real mill.  Lathes, not being designed to taking milling forces, lack rigidity and work space.  Low rigidity means only light cuts can be taken. Lack of space means only small objects can be held, often requiring considerable ingenuity, and then the workpiece can’t be traversed far.

I found my slide very frustrating, and avoided using it unless all other methods failed.  Slides work, better on large lathes than small ones, but are highly inferior to a real mill.  Highly inferior, not slightly!

This one is already causing bother, and it’s not arrived yet!  Not obvious how to attach it to the lathe, or which to buy.  And when that’s sorted out, milling on his lathe might not deliver what Chris expects or needs.

With hindsight, I should have put the money I wasted on a slide towards buying a mill.

Dave

 

 

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

If you haven’t got a mill use the lathe. If you haven’t even got a lathe use a file. Better than just giving up and not doing anything. Overcoming the difficulties can be fun and ‘builds character’.
Also sometimes you can sometimes get use of facilities at your local club, even Men’s Shed or Maker Group in larger cities, At Exeter DMES we have workshop training sessions every Tuesday evening.

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Hi Chris, The flat cross slide is not very handy.Not sure we know where you are but I’m sure there are people on here who could help you. If your near me in North Norfolk then I have all the gear. Bring the materials flat plate Etc and a sketch – soon get it done. Noel

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

The two existing studs would be quite adequate to allow you to make use of the slide to make a subplate that the slide can be mounted to.

Having said that the standard Myford setup that has served 1000s of model engineers over the years only uses two studs so as I said would do as it is.

SillyOldDuffer. What vertical slide are you basing your opinions on? was it a flimsy one that is supplied for many mini-lathes or in the case of the OP a copy of the popular Myford Design which is far more rigid, has more capacity, more travel and more tee slots.

Chris12. I bought the Myford version of what you show over 35yrs ago as that was all that was available then. The ARC one looks to be based on that and is quite a bit cheaper so not such a waste of money if later on you do decide to buy a milling machine. They still have their uses and mine gets used where it is the best tool for the job and I have 3 other mills to choose from.

[Andrew CrowParticipant @andrewcrow91475]

Chris, just a further thought, unless you are going to be doing a lot of angular work I would go for basic fixed slide. It will be more rigid for most of the work you will probably do and there are other ways to produce angles if required.

I still use my vertical slide even though I have a small milling machine, for some jobs it’s easier to set up and to see.

Andy.

[noel shelley]

On noel shelley Said:

Hi Chris, The flat cross slide is not very handy.Not sure we know where you are but I’m sure there are people on here who could help you. If your near me in North Norfolk then I have all the gear. Bring the materials flat plate Etc and a sketch – soon get it done. Noel

I am from Stafford. Havent checked the local clubs yet to be honest. Might have a look…

My plan is the following : buy an (overpriced) machined plate with suitable dimensions (such as this one : https://norelem.co.uk/en/Product-overview/Clamping-technology/01000/Plates/Rectangular-plates-precision-steel/Plo%C5%A1%C4%8Da-pravokoten-jeklo/p/01130-04X250) and 2 additional tee nuts to go in the cross slide. Then on the subplate, drill 4 holes to attach the subplate to the cross slide, and 2 holes to fix the vertical slide to the subplate. hope that makes sense…

 

On Bazyle Said:

If you haven’t got a mill use the lathe. If you haven’t even got a lathe use a file. Better than just giving up and not doing anything. Overcoming the difficulties can be fun and ‘builds character’.

Fully agree !

 

On JasonB Said:

The two existing studs would be quite adequate to allow you to make use of the slide to make a subplate that the slide can be mounted to.

Having said that the standard Myford setup that has served 1000s of model engineers over the years only uses two studs so as I said would do as it is.

SillyOldDuffer. What vertical slide are you basing your opinions on? was it a flimsy one that is supplied for many mini-lathes or in the case of the OP a copy of the popular Myford Design which is far more rigid, has more capacity, more travel and more tee slots.

Chris12. I bought the Myford version of what you show over 35yrs ago as that was all that was available then. The ARC one looks to be based on that and is quite a bit cheaper so not such a waste of money if later on you do decide to buy a milling machine. They still have their uses and mine gets used where it is the best tool for the job and I have 3 other mills to choose from.

Thanks, I was actually thinking of that one. Looks basic and robust.

 

On Andrew Crow Said:

Chris, just a further thought, unless you are going to be doing a lot of angular work I would go for basic fixed slide. It will be more rigid for most of the work you will probably do and there are other ways to produce angles if required.

I still use my vertical slide even though I have a small milling machine, for some jobs it’s easier to set up and to see.

Andy.

Not planning to do any angle work at this stage. Already thought about the rigidity issue of the swivelling ones…

[Andrew CrowParticipant @andrewcrow91475]

There is a thriving club in Stafford they are based at the Stafford Show Ground.

[Andrew Crow]

On Andrew Crow Said:

There is a thriving club in Stafford they are based at the Stafford Show Ground.

Just to confirm see the article by John Arrowsmith in the July issue of ME & W magazine.

[Chris12Participant @chris12]

Are you talking about the Stafford & district model engineering society?

I’ve been on their website few times, doesn’t seem very alive. I will have a look at the article you mentioned 👍

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Don’t forget you want to mount the vertical slide so that the chuck centre is also on the centre of the vice, which may mean the slide will need to go down between the saddle wings depending on the work shape and vice mounts.

[PeteParticipant @pete41194]

Well there’s also these. https://www.chronos.ltd.uk/product/new-tee-slotted-milling-table-4-x-5/ Drilling and counter boring that to then use Allen head cap screws to fixture that sub table to your cross slides method of attaching the top slide will be easier and gain fairly easy repositioning of your milling attachment for some part shapes or sizes. Part holding or orientation of where the milling attachment is positioned towards the front or rear of the lathe on the cross slide is a big help sometimes as Dave already pointed out. I might even go as far as using a longer cap screw that holds your cross slides feed nut just to gain a third attachment point to your lathes cross slide with that Chronos tee slotted sub table if you chose to go that route. That cap screw would have to be changed between milling and lathe work, but at most that would take an extra minute or two. Anything you can do to gain even a little more rigidity will only help.

But you need to start a bit further back if you haven’t already done so Chris. That means getting your lathe bed properly leveled first. For everything else including any milling, that’s your initial and base line set up. Then you’ll need to indicate just how parallel the top of the cross slides surface is to those lathe bed ways in both front to rear and maybe more importantly, it’s parallelism is in the head stock to tail stock direction. Part alignment to the lathes spindle driving your cutting tools has the exact same requirements as doing so with a vertical mill, it’s just orientated differently. Any tilt front to rear on your milling attachment in the cross slide head to tail stock orientation creates an angled surface that’s cut, drilled or bored into your parts.

And the same parallelism requirement for any sub plate or sub table you add. Unless your very lucky, few of these off shore machines really are parallel for that cross slides upper surface and to the lathe ways no matter how good the surface grinding may look. Any HS-TS inaccuracy transmits to a forward or rearward lean to the milling attachment and any parts machined on it. That alignment is pretty simple and easy to double check with a magnetic base and dial indicator. Even easier once that milling attachment is fixtured to the cross slide.

As far as milling attachments being of no use? Easily proven as untrue just going back through any of about the pre 1980’s or earlier copies of the Model Engineer magazines. There’s ample evidence of quite complex milling for extremely well done scale models before today’s smaller and much cheaper off shore mills became available. However, and if it were me, the accuracy and quality of the milling attachment itself has a lot to do with your part rigidity and ultimately its machined accuracy. Instead, I really think I’d chose to look for a good condition used Myford milling attachment. Yes were all limited for available funds, but any extra cost would be more than worth while. And that vertical tee slotted Myford milling attachment has about the best versatility of any other lathe milling attachment I know of. If they were just a bit larger, I would have bought one.

Leaving aside the limited cross slide travel and part size, even your lathe will be multiple times more rigid than my own Bridgeport clone mill while actually driving any milling tools. Size for size, a lathe head stock is quite close to the same sized horizontal mill that was designed from the start to be quite rigid. Without question lathe milling does have serious limitations on part holding rigidity compared to even a smaller bench top sized mill. So of course those lighter cuts aren’t optional. But it’s still completely possible. And yes almost any mill would be better, until you have that, then use what you do have just like M.E.’s have been doing for more than a century. I’d also buy or make my own fly cutters. For M.E. type work, they provide the ability of creating much finer surface finishes that save a great deal of time savings that end mills just can’t do when trying to remove those tool marks. They aren’t really cable of being used for some milled shapes, but when they can be, there a cheap and excellent tool to have. However, any fly cutters are and have always been meant as a light finishing tool only. I’d estimate for your lathe, I’d probably limit any fly cut finishing to maybe .005″ / .12 mm of cut depth in any steel. And at most, maybe 1/2 as much again to double that on aluminum or brass. Deep cuts with a single tooth fly cutter can be done, but they unarguably hammer your spindle bearings much harder. I don’t make any fly cuts much larger than what I’ve mentioned even on my own 2 hp 3 ph BP clone mill for that exact reason. And on it, that hammering effect also damages the spindle feed splines given enough deep cut fly cutting.

Like Jason, I have two vertical mills and additional to what he has, a small horizontal. I still purposely bought a larger and more rigid lathe milling attachment than even a Myford. It still depends on how much anyone might use it after buying a vertical mill later, but I’d consider my own lathe to be lacking in optional methods if I didn’t have my milling attachment. I’d also consider that this book is also non optional. https://www.teepublishing.co.uk/books/workshop-practice-series/no-5-milling-operations-in-the-lathe/ It will vastly speed up your learning curve as far as how to hold, position and cut a wide variety of parts.

To take it a bit further, add any live tooling to the lathes carriage and cross slide, and an accurate method of lathe head stock dividing. You then have much of what a rotary table and vertical mill can do. Or reverse that with a small rotary table attached to the milling attachment. That would be useful and especially so for items such as PCD bolt hole circles. With what I have now, I can even use a MT 4 – Mt 2 spindle reducer in my lathes head stock, and although extremely rare so far, use any of my horizontal mills arbors and it’s cutting tools on my lathe if needed. Just like the Myford ML 7 and Super 7 lathes, making your lathe and any available tooling much more versatile with a few additions can sometimes make almost impossible looking jobs possible. And that’s always been a part of the M.E. hobby.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Pete, if you disable the cross slide feed nut how are you going to move the work to do the actual milling as you would loose one axis of movement?

I would also consider that a tee slotted plate is about twice the thinkness of a tapped one so will not raise the vertical slide or other work fixed to it thus reducing the usable space.

[PeteParticipant @pete41194]

Nope, I maybe wasn’t clear enough, but you don’t disconnect that cross slide feed nut while milling at all Jason. You do remove the OEM feed screw attachment bolt, drill and counter bore any sub plate being used for the same sized Allen head cap screw, just a longer one that both clamps the sub plate down and reattaches the cross slides feed nut. It’s not ideal, but still more rigid and secure using a third bolt spaced that distance away from the two used for attaching the top slide. But even with that, I suspect it still might be less than needed. Milling forces and cutting vibrations might still show chatter with even those light depths of cut.

Many might not want to do so, but I don’t think I’d be adverse to drilling and tapping 2-3 bolt holes on each side of his cross slide into the major and thickest part of the cross slides dovetails as a method of attaching any sub plate. Then just run set screws into them any time that sub plate or milling table isn’t being used. I’d probably want someone with a good mill and with a dro to do the work if I couldn’t do it myself though. I’d offer to do it for him, but with almost 5,000 miles distance between where each of us are makes that a bit impractical and with fairly long shipping times in each direction. At most, that’s a 1-2 hr job even being extremely careful everything is almost perfect.

I’ve no experience with the exact lathe Chris has, so that Chronos tee slotted table may or may not work as you’ve said. Without hard dimensions or already having the same lathe and whatever milling attachment he finally decides on it’s tough to say what the very best method might really be. Or for all I know, his lathe may have been sold by other dealers with an already tee slotted cross slide. In fact I’d be a bit surprised if it wasn’t since that’s now fairly common. But others with the same lathe could say for sure if it ever was or not. If so, ordering and properly fitting a factory tee slotted upper cross slide replacement part might still be the best and easiest. There’s more than one way of getting a milling attachment bolted down securely enough to his lathe. But any final decision is going to be up to Chris to figure out for the smaller details and how much effort he’s willing to go to.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Got you now. I wonder if a custom bolt could be made with a hex head so a thin box spanner could be used to tighten it within the existing cross slide counterbore. Then instead of it having a hex hole for an allen key the middle could be tapped maybe M5 or M6 for a bolt through the sub plate. That way you would not need to remove the feed nut screw.

[PeteParticipant @pete41194]

That’s another possibility Jason. Visually the counter bore in the top of his cross slide does look pretty shallow though. Stripping the bolt head flats might then be an issue? But and since his lathe has a very fixed point for attaching his top slide. A larger and more average sized bolt head or long stud and nuts may not create many problems other than for large diameter and long work pieces while turning.

[Chris12Participant @chris12]

Thanks Pete for this very detailed answer. To be fair, I don’t feel comfortable at this stage to drill the cross slide. I don’t have a proper drill, just an old combi drill ( not sure that will even be powerful enough to drill through metal !)

 

That being said, the tee slotted plate you mentioned from chronos could be an interesting (and cheaper) option than a milled steel plate.

Drilling hole through the grooves to accommodate the compound table screws could work. Just need to have enough clearance to tighten the nuts. The vertical slide can be attached to it, using tee nuts or something similar.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

I tend to agree with S O D, having been less than impressed by Vertical Slides on two quite different lathes, because of their inherent lack of rigidity. (Vertical Slide, not the lathes!)

If you MUST use one, I would suggest mounting on a plate which is as thick as possible, secured by the Cross Slide fixings. The thicker the plate, the stiffer and more rigid it will be. Even have it so thick that it needs to be counter bored to access the nuts for the fixings, even to making special longer nuts, with turned down hexagons.

Having mounted the Vertical Slide, remember that the lathe is not a Milling machine, so cutters need to sharp, cuts light, and shallow.

Howard

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