Micro rivets

[HacksawParticipant @hacksaw]

I'm trying to restore an old model bus chassis . Pretty sure its a Harrington Contender Integral chassis .. with a Rolls Royce B80 petrol engine . Who ever built it was a fabulous modeller . Perhaps it was for a motor show display . However , I guess it has been dropped .. It's constructed as per original , aluminium and rivets … 100's of them! And quite a few have either pulled through, or just missing .And the chassis is flopping about .. They're about 1mm dia..and iron.. A lot of the ones that need replacing , are in an awkward place ..

I don't suppose there's a tool , i 'm imagining something . say like a stapler..or a goose necked stapler .. or something like a leather punch shape .. that could set a rivet ? Any ideas ? If not , i'll make a snap and set , but it'll be bloomin awkward ..i'll have to get another pair of hands to hold it !! I don't really want to just glue it back together . Thanks

[HacksawParticipant @hacksaw]

[HacksawParticipant @hacksaw]

Here you can see twisted wire holding the crossmember together ! How the hell am i going to re -rivet that !

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Hacksaw on 02/02/2021 23:12:58:

.

How the hell am i going to re -rivet that !

.

With great difficulty, and considerable finesse

[ sorry … couldn’t resist it ]

MichaelG.

[Paul LousickParticipant @paullousick59116]

It appears there is a bit of room to swing a hammer if you remove the round tank.

You need to make a support (anvil) to hold the rivet head while the opposite side is formed. Perhaps a solid piece of steel with a half round hole in the end to match the rivet head profile and clamped in a vice. Then with the chassis held vertically and the rivet head supported, set the opposite side. A centre punch with a concave end (used for punching nails) is all you will need as a snap..

Your idea of something like a stapler would also work but would have to be much stronger to squash a rivet. Perhaps using a pair of vice grip pliers and modifying the jaws.

Paul

 

Edited By Paul Lousick on 03/02/2021 00:38:09

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

How about is that 1mm dia? 5/64 are quite easy to get from the ME suppliers that's 1.2mm.

If you search the forum for "rivit squeezer" you will find a few examples of tooling to close the rivit by hand.

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

1) Are you sure the rivets are steel? Strange material for Al alloy riveting. Copper rivets would still not be the best material, but much easier to set.

2) You could epoxy glue the joint to give it strength and then lightly set a copper rivet using 'cranked' rivet sets. Over time, the copper rivet would self colour to match the existing ones perhaps.

3) Never done it, but you could perhaps use a spot welder set at a low current to heat a rivet in situ and set the rivet.

Ps – beautiful model.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Speedy Builder5 on 03/02/2021 06:51:28:.

…

Ps – beautiful model.

Be good to know it's history. It could be a labour of love, but my guess is this was professionally made for a practical purpose, perhaps adapted later for show purposes. I think the chassis model was built from the drawings to prove the design was production ready and a sensible build sequence was possible. (Making the model would identify which rivets are hidden behind other parts when the joint is made. Often cured in the real thing simply by altering the assembly order. This is why car maintenance can be such a pain – parts assembled to suit the factory, not the bloke who can't quite get a good grip on the oil filter because the fan is in the way.)

The model identifies interference and impractical features and it can be rotated, inspected and discussed to remove wrinkles before spending big money setting up to make the real thing. Today, this sort of modelling is mostly done with 3D CAD.

I suspect the chassis model was extended later to impress prospective customers and investors. Production engineers don't need realistic details like that engine block, but everyone else loves 'em. This also can be done with 3D-Cad: customers today are more likely to be impressed with photo-realistic rendering and animations than physical models.

Dave

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

On the basis that the model has been assembled and rivetted completely, it should be possible to do it again, as long as it is first completely dismantled and the original assembly order is found and followed. But I'm sure that is not the answer you were looking for – sorry.

I am visualising a tool shaped like a micrometer, with a round dimple in both the anvils. The (originally) fixed anvil is on a thread, so it can move in and out and be locked in position, while the moving anvil is on the end of a loose rod through the middle of the calibrated sleeve. The 'fixed' anvil is adjusted to get in position, then the sleeve is nipped up to hold the parts in the location, and the moving anvil is tapped smartly to close the rivet.

And you might think of using aluminium wire to make your own rivets. As the holes will be affected by removing the originals, the new rivets could stand being a bit bigger.

Just the sort of job we all need during lock-down.

Cheers, Tim

[IanTParticipant @iant]

I think others have already covered it – but access for riveting is obviously easier as you work through a sequence of sub-assemblies and much harder to do once the whole chassis is assembled.

You could completely strip and start over but that would be a lot of work and some damage might result. I'm not sure how large this model is exactly – but I think I would take a more pragmatic approach.

Something which hasn't been mentioned but which I think would be useful – would be to build a chassis jig to hold key datum points on the chassis true and level. We have access to modern adhesives now and having established how things should be (aligned) I'd carefully remove any really loose rivets and seek to clean the mating surfaces before using some form of epoxy resin. Cosmetic replacement rivets could be inserted at the same time. I think this would be a much more practical approach than completely stripping the chassis. Of course it might be possible to remove some sub-assemblies and re-rivet them from scratch but I'd still use adhesive and jig where necessary.

It's a very nice model and worth doing well.

Regards,

IanT

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

Those rivets look like copper on my screen.

You will have to make a variety of cantilevered dollys to hold in a vise while doing the work, and having assistance to hold the model in place would be welcome.

Edited By old mart on 03/02/2021 12:04:01

[HacksawParticipant @hacksaw]

Thank you so much for the replies ! Every idea mentioned i have already thought about !!

Tim S , the micrometer / hollow G clamp screw idea .. i thought of that too ! I was thinking I could use a modified automatic centre punch pushed down the hollow screw to clench the rivet ??

The existing rivets are magnetic , I would use soft copper or aluminium mig wire . Or buy some jewellery ones … I

Spot welding .. dummy rivet ..This i'm going to look at . Would the pieces need to be really clean , or would a belt of electric burn through any oxide ? Something like they use to weld Ni-cads tags together ? All food for thought..

I do have a new front axle my dad made , and front springs ,wheels , dampers , steering wheel and other bits .. that were detached .

I have no interest in buses or coaches .. I paid about 40 quid for it at Maidstone Toy fair diecast swap meet , to give to my dad , around 20 years ago . He's dead now , he never did repair it … so i claimed it back ..

It is exquisite , maybe its beyond me to repair it , being honest , I would like it to go eventually to a museum or something , i suppose .

I've just seen on TV , Antiques hunt thing , from Lewis in Sussex .( I'm in love with that Christina chick..&nbsp She went to a toy train museum in Brighton.. which isn't a million miles from Hove , where Harringtons were built . Maybe i'll offer it to them at some point .. we'll see .

[HacksawParticipant @hacksaw]

 

 

 

More pics

sump side of the engine

 

 

 

Axle

 

Radiator

 

Fan side of radiator ,engine and gearbox mount . Dipstick ..Pulleys and fan do actually rotate !

 

Size wise ..that's an AA battery on the top.. so you can see there ain't a lot of room for hammering a rivet !!

 

 

Edited By Hacksaw on 03/02/2021 15:46:21

Edited By Hacksaw on 03/02/2021 15:48:13

[WearyParticipant @weary]

Hacksaw,

You can get rivets down to 1mm diameteer from Sapphire Rivets in steel, stainless steel, aluminium (& alloy), nickel silver, brass, copper, bronze, monel, in a variety of head-forms 'over the counter'.

No need to try exotic sources down to 1mm diameter shaft; unless you want to, of course!

Regards,

Phil.

[HacksawParticipant @hacksaw]

Thanks . I've found the rivet squeezer ! Interesting possibility

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

Pure aluminium rivets would be the easiest to fit. I think you are going to strip the model right down to the bare chassis before tackling the work. Every extra part will just get in the way.

[Peter Jones 20Participant @peterjones20]

For such a beautifully made model it would be a great shame to bodge it.

When I was training (1975~) I had to make 100+ rivets for instructor from 1/8" stainless steel welding rod.

Heads were 1/16", I forget shank size but remember they were 3/8" total length. I think I lost almost as many in the swarf tray as I made. (his hobby was clock making and obviously he didn't want to make all the rivets, having a bunch of students able to do it for him)

I wasn't bothered though as it did get me a good grade for 'projects completed'. (or something?)

The right thing to do would be dismantle sections and re-build them with new rivets.

Copper isn't the best idea as it has a galvanic interaction with aluminium (stainless steel has similar reaction with aluminium)

Personally, I would make a bunch of rivets from 6061 then modify a 'Mole' grips to set them (get a cheap copy, remove jaws and grind flat, ball end mill for head and set shank) Just squeezing rivets would make re-assembly pretty quick ,particularly if you 'glue' parts and sub assemblies together first

[Richard S2Participant @richards2]

Here are a few examples that I made for various jobs (wheels 'n' tender mainly). Certainly worth the time spent.

I made several of the parts interchangeable, so as to save time.

Good luck with your project. Certainly a fine detailed model and well worth the work.

[DalboyParticipant @dalboy]

Looking at the existing rivets on the chassis to me they look like copper wire has been used and peened over to represent rivets

[HacksawParticipant @hacksaw]

They're magnetic real rivets holding it together ..

[Johannes GrabschParticipant @johannesgrabsch91508]

Google KNIPEX

You will find a Plier Tool that can be modified into a handy Rivetting Tool. I have used the standard plier as well as the tiny brother, to apply many, many rivets (copper and steel) into my models. The rivetformer you have to add decides the type and size of the rivet. Send me a PM if you need detalls

Johannes

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by JasonB on 03/02/2021 06:30:36:

How about is that 1mm dia? 5/64 are quite easy to get from the ME suppliers that's 1.2mm.

If you search the forum for "rivit squeezer" you will find a few examples of tooling to close the rivit by hand.

I think you mean 3/64"?

Even smaller, I used 1/32" copper rivets for the body of my loco (and 1/16" ordinary rivets for the frames) .

I used cheap nail punches* as sets and made my own anvils on 3/8" steel bars held in a vice.

Neil

*I thought they were sets when I bought them, they worked fine.

[HacksawParticipant @hacksaw]

I've removed the engine ! Low mileage i guess ,but the oil is a bit low on the dipstick , and compression is low … gummed rings I daresay , ruddy 1950's monograde oil…

Sweet innit ?

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