Making a superglue chuck adapter for brass wheel

[Alan Wood 4Participant @alanwood4]

Hi NDIY, this is a difficult one to describe …

The cutters will be PP Thornton or similar and the profile of the cutter 'side on' is the shape of the tooth and then it thickens out for strength. If the arbor is larger than the blank the cutting action back and forth across the wheel will see more resistance as it meets more aluminium that it needs to do.

Likewise if the arbor is less than the diameter than the lowest point of the tooth there is no back resistance as the cutter passes through the brass only and providing the arbor is not dramatically less than the tooth depth will still provide good support for the cutting action.

If the arbor to be identical in diameter to the wheel OD so it gives full support, does not resist the cutter more than necessary and given the two metal sandwich will help reduce cutter burrs.

I still tend to keep it just a bit less than the full wheel diameter so I can see what is going on with the rear face of the blank and know that the cutter is going all the way through.

This probably needs a picture to make sense, I'll knock one up and post in a minute.

Alan

[Alan Wood 4Participant @alanwood4]

Apologies for the size and the generic nature. The side view of the cutter is also generic but if the arbor is larger than the blank you will get the 'thicker' section of the cutter impacting on the arbor.

[Bob StevensonParticipant @bobstevenson13909]

…If you do really feel the need to cut clock wheels as crudely as this then make it a bit easier and simply screw the wheel blank to the wooden "arbor" with screws thru the places which will be eliminated in crossing out…..

……….Cynoacrylate can be readily freed on delicate clock parts by gently boiling in water for about 10 to 15 minutes, where on the glue suddenly gives up. If the parts are not delicate then a small flame from a lighter will suffice, usually.

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

One technique that seems to work quite well to stick flat parts down on a CNC mill, and also for wood routing, is this. Stick Good quality blue masking tape firmly to each surface. Apply superglue to one surface in dots, press the other surface firmly down on it. After cutting, peel the part off the tape – it's surprising how firmly the tape sticks over a large area, but it comes off quite easily when done. May work for turing too, maybe worth a try.

[Mark Gould 1Participant @markgould1]

@Alan Wood, can you explain to me (a newbie to ME) why the tailstock must be slid and not wound when pushing the workpiece into contact with the arbor?

Thanks,

Mark

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Bob Stevenson on 25/12/2019 14:39:19:

…

Cynoacrylate can be readily freed on delicate clock parts by gently boiling in water for about 10 to 15 minutes, where on the glue suddenly gives up. If the parts are not delicate then a small flame from a lighter will suffice, usually.

I've often used super-glue on my big lathe, the advantage being – I think – it's stronger than Shellac, comes in a convenient tube, and more likely to take big machine cutting stresses. The downside is breaking the bond after (ideally needs to be hotter than 100C), and not being able to edge the work on centre while the glue sets. Shellac overcomes the centring problem by setting slowly, but it's less convenient and the joint is much weaker than superglue.

Seems to me Superglue is the best general purpose adhesive, but Shellac takes the trick on a small lathe where the operator needs to nudge a delicate part to dead-centre, and isn't going to attack a delicate job with a roughing cutter. Otherwise, superglue is fine on a small lathe too. I can't think of a good reason for using Shellac on a big machine though?

Dave

[Alan Wood 4Participant @alanwood4]

Two replies : –

John thanks for your reply – I also use the masking tape and SuperGlue on my CNC table. I agree the blue or green tape has best adhesion. (There is quite a bit about this on John Saunders NYC CNC). I tried it for cutting wheels on an arbor and in this case the wheel and arbor diameters needed to match or it was possible for the wheel to be pressured by the cutting action and would 'tip' and loose adhesion. It was also difficult to not get a rotational moment on the edge of the wheel blank when truing the outer diameter to size. What helped both these was to tap the centre hole in the arbor and physically screw the wheel blank in place with the masking tape and super glue inhibiting the rotational movement when turning to size and the fliping when cutting. Clearly the tapped hole will be smaller than the wheel centre clearance hole so when finishing the wheel hole to size you need to drill deeper into the arbor to allow a machine reamer to achieve size. This is not a problem but needs to be considered.

Of late I have been cutting wheels on the CNC mill using both a fine end mill into the blank held horizontally and also with a conventional wheel cutter in the mill and the blank held vertically in an automated rotary mount in the A axis. Horizontally I have used the SuperGlue and masking tape method but have still used the conventional arbor technique in the A axis. Experiments continue but the results have been very good.

Mark thanks also for your question – nothing magic about sliding rather than winding. I just like to not dither speed wise with the glue sat there on the arbor and also a solid push into place flattens the glue film and the final winding of the tailstock finishes it off. So all about speed of action more than anything. Do 'have a go' and don't worry if you mess up one or two first attempts. It is all about learning (and playing) and the buzz of success when you achieve it. When you are learning there is no such thing as a dumb question only how dumb you are made to feel by the person answering. Feel free to contact me on direct mail if you wish.

Alan

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Alan Wood 4 on 25/12/2019 12:58:45:

[…]

Bill suggests that standard single applicant SuperGlue goes off better at an air interface. (At the time of his authorship twin pack SuperGlue might not have been readily available). Bill postulates that having the grooves in the end face of the arbor increases the net length of air interface and therefore makes the bond stronger.

[…]

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I would be genuinely interested to see the source of that idea … Could you please quote a reference ?

Although 'superglue' is a much-used, and therefore largely meaningless term; in my limited understanding, the behaviour of cyanoacrylates is quite different to that stated.

My 'go to' source of information about such sticky subjects is:

'Adhesives in Engineering Design' by W.A. Lees

[ Bill Lees has a legendary status, way above Granny ]

His general description of Cyanoacrylates starts thus:

Perhaps the behaviour is very product-specific, but I think you will agree that the two 'models' differ greatly.

MichaelG.

[Mark Gould 1Participant @markgould1]

Alan, thanks for your reply. I’ll give it a go soon!

[Alan Wood 4Participant @alanwood4]

Clockmaking and Modelmaking – Tools and Techniques by William Smith pages 14 to 20.

Bill refers to Eastman 910 as being the original source of glue which subsequently had a lapsed patent and morphed into other brand names. I assume he came across this and its application while employed as an engineer at Oak Ridge, TN.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Alan Wood 4 on 26/12/2019 12:59:44:

Clockmaking and Modelmaking – Tools and Techniques by William Smith pages 14 to 20.

Bill refers to Eastman 910 as being the original source of glue which subsequently had a lapsed patent and morphed into other brand names. I assume he came across this and its application while employed as an engineer at Oak Ridge, TN.

.

Thanks for that … much appreciated.

MichaelG.

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Presumably this is the Patent:

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?CC=US&NR=2768109A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=&date=19561023&DB=&locale=

The chemistry is beyond me, but perhaps others can comment.

.

Edit: This may also be of interest:

https://www.permabond.com/2016/06/08/permabond-910-oldie-goodie/

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 26/12/2019 13:34:34

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 26/12/2019 13:18:47:

.

Presumably this is the Patent:

**LINK**

The chemistry is beyond me, but perhaps others can comment.

.

.

Oops .. we probably need to find one of the earlier patents

MichaelG.

[Neil LickfoldParticipant @neillickfold44316]

Super glue to hold thin parts has been around for a very long time, it was used in industry in 1982 when I started my apprenticeship. We made the mandrel from similar material to the part being made. we put the mandrel and part into the tempering oven set at 120c . the part seperated, and the mandrels soaked in acetone to clean off the glue and start again. So we had brass, steel and AL mandrels. Sometimes the mandrel was skimmed , depending on the setup. When cylindrical grinding, or surface grinding, it was important to have a fresh dressed sharp wheel that did not have too much width. The part needed to be cut as cool as possible.

I remember when we had some thin parts being made from Delrin, and it did not glue at all. So be careful when using the cyano holding method.

Neil

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

This might be the one: **LINK**

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/patent/search?q=pn%3DUS2794788A

MichaelG.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 26/12/2019 19:38:27:

This might be the one: **LINK**

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PostScript: The practical aspects of usage are covered nicely.

MichaelG.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Chris …

You might find this of interest; if only for design inspiration

**LINK**

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Boley-Leinen-Watchmakers-8mm-Lathe-Wax-Chuck/264576295189

Noting that it is, of course, a traditional ‘Wax Chuck’ intended for use with Shellac

MichaelG.

[Author]

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