Machine tool paints

[Kiwi BlokeParticipant @kiwibloke62605]

I've been following, and admiring, Damian Noble's account of his Senior rebuild. Very impressive!

These days, at least in NZ, and I'd guess worse in UK, it's getting difficult to get hold of old-fashioned paints containing the not-quite lethal solvents we loved to breathe in. 2-pack polyurethanes and epoxies are nasty, expensive and also difficult for privateers to get. Myford's exhibition finish used Trimite polyurethane, from memory, but I was told that the stuff wasn't available to the public.

Eventually, I intend to rebuild some old machines – some from WWII era – and would like to mimic their original finish. They will be used, so the paint must perform well too.

What were the traditional materials used for machine tool painting, say 40+ years ago? I assume they would be some form of alkyd resin paint (= oil-based enamel?), but these can be pathetically fragile. Presumably there were tough versions available. What filler/surfacer would have been used on castings? What primers?

If it's pointless trying to source semi-obsolete paint types, what would you suggest? If there are any Kiwis out there, where do you go for a good selection? Mainland paints in Chch looks promising; anywhere else?

[Kiwi BlokeParticipant @kiwibloke62605]

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

This might sound a bit daft, but what about good ol' Hammerite- Azko Nobel?

If you can't get that in NZ, they're missing a trick there, very popular in the UK. 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/bhp/hammerite-paint

PS. The hammered finish is very cool looking on machine tools, dimpled texture to the finish. You wouldn't have wasted your money buying it in if you have to. Then again, we might be having a free trade agreement in the future!

Michael W

 

Edited By Michael Walters on 14/09/2016 10:13:58

[Perko7Participant @perko7]

Maybe have a look at what the car restoration/modification enthusiasts use for major components such as engine block, gearbox, diff etc. that can't easily be done with the standard automotive body finishes?

Geoff P.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Michael,

Proper Hammerite paint disappeared from the market, years ago.

… The modern, polotically correct, product is not in the same league.

MichaelG.

[Keith LongParticipant @keithlong89920]

Another product worth considering is the farm machinery enamel usually stocked by agricultural suppliers. Pretty much resistant to most things and will withstand a knock or two.

Edited By Keith Long on 14/09/2016 11:06:25

[Nick TParticipant @nickt]

I used Paragon paint on my Tom Senior with good results, available from HERE.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Kiwi Bloke 1 on 14/09/2016 10:01:43:

it's getting difficult to get hold of old-fashioned paints containing the not-quite lethal solvents we loved to breathe in.

Don't laugh but I nearly knocked myself out spilling a little bottle of mostly ether while trying to get rid of a corn on my heel a couple of weeks ago.

Neil

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

What you need is an Alkyd Resin paint (available in NZ)

Myford's presently supply (small amounts!) Trimite Q58 Glossline as their touch up brushing paint.

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 14/09/2016 10:52:32:

Michael,

Proper Hammerite paint disappeared from the market, years ago.

… The modern, politically correct, product is not in the same league.

MichaelG.

Noo! Is they're nothing these lunatics wont touch! Now i just need to make that tin last forever!

I can understand the risks if you're a decorator and you're being asked to strip or abrade away old layers of harmful paint, but for the consumer, it's not like you're licking the walls on a daily basis? 

Michael W

Edited By Michael Walters on 14/09/2016 13:02:34

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

I find it interesting that 2-pack paints are considered expensive and hard to get hold of. When a litre of 2-pack is just enough to paint a small car for about £40, how is that expensive? And then there is the convenience; if starting with a prepared surface, you could epoxy prime, primer fill, flat back and top coat the small areas on a small machine tool in a day.

[frank brownParticipant @frankbrown22225]

One does sound like an old f**rt, but when I was a lad, (1965), my grandad bent up some black iron bar into "wrought iron" railings and my dad painted the thing with Dulux buttercup domestic polyurathene paint. His language was awful, seems it was very difficult to apply the second coat. It still looks great!!

In 1980 I used 2 pot International polyurathane paint on a south facing external wooden door. Slight dusting of surface since then, really only showing up my poor workmanship.

1990, sprayed my sons bike with Hammerite. Soft as marzipan, chipped off (strange?), waste of time and money.

I hope the Health and safety people are happy, certainly the company directors are

Frank

[Fowlers FuryParticipant @fowlersfury]

Surprised nobody has mentioned Tractol paint. It's used in the restoration of old agricultural machinery and AFAIK it is (should that be "was"?) a "classic" enamel using xylene as the principle solvent.

Still widely available and with a reasonable range of colours

**LINK**

Here's one comment on use of Tractol ~ FWIW:-

"I've been using tractol for years on anything from agricultural equipment, gates, railings, welders and even cars. Their mf silver mist looks brill on alloy wheels. OK, it doesn't dry like 2k but it is a lot safer to apply and if you leave it for a couple of hours in a spray booth with the heater going it will be dry enough to handle. Apply it like you would with cellulose, using several light coats but try to put on the final coat slightly heavier to achieve a better shine. Please note – use only tractol synthetic thinner to thin paint. Other thinners can cause the paint to go lumpy. I only found this out when the paint went lumpy in the spray gun, such a mess to clean out. On the subject of spray guns, I now use a HVLP gun. It's only a cheap one from Lidl but it works well and I use 1/3 of the paint I used before.

For a really shiny finish there is a Tractol clear lacquer available but I've never tried it. My paint supplier told me you can apply 2k lacquer over tractol but I've never tried that either."

[Chris Evans 6Participant @chrisevans6]

Plus One for Tractol. I always painted my Land Rovers with it. Very durable. Maybe the Ferguson TE20 (Grey Fergie) paint would look OK on my Bridgeport to see how it stands up ?

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

Posted by Geoff Perkins 1 on 14/09/2016 10:51:19:

Maybe have a look at what the car restoration/modification enthusiasts use for major components such as engine block, gearbox, diff etc. that can't easily be done with the standard automotive body finishes?

Every one of those can be painted with anything you like from hammerite(which is hideous), through old-fashioned cellulose, two-pack to modern water-base paints. Thorough preparation is the important part, not the paint.

[damianParticipant @damiannoble34800]

Hi Kiwi Bloke

Many thanks for following my restoration and the compliment.

Its been enjoyable and I have to admit I'm now looking at my old Pacera (Meddings) pillar drill thinking it would be nice to do a similar overhaul on it.

Sounds like you have some interesting projects in the planning and I hope you will detail them all here so that we can all follow and enjoy.

Its the first overhaul I've done but wont be the last. I can't really help with the paint over there as most companies don't export so I hope you get a source located. The help here is great

Damian

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Paragon paints use a high temp engine enamel that can withstand oils etc.

http://www.paragonpaints.co.uk/Workshop-Machinery-Colours.html

Available in standard machinery colours.

No connection other than a commercial user.

[Kiwi BlokeParticipant @kiwibloke62605]

Nicholas Wheeler makes some good points. I'll have to re-think some of my prejudices. However, I still don't want the hassle of protecting myself from isocyanates.

Hammerite? No thanks – hated the stuff, both original and politically-correct, emasculated versions. The original thinner (a now-vilified chlorinated hydrocarbon, if I remember correctly) was too useful in the 'shop to waste on the ghastly paint.

If I were back in 'the old country', I guess I'd be trying Tractol, but I don't think it's available here in NZ. Sparex tractor paint is available, however – anyone know anything about it? We enjoy(?) a very restricted choice of many things here. (Thank goodness the craft beer movement is really taking off, so the choice of beverages is much better now!)

No-one's yet answered what the traditional materials would have been. Some of the old machines I've dealt with seem to have massively thick (original) paint, which is hard and somewhat brittle, and comes off in large flakes, rather than peeling off. Would it have been simply many coats of a tough type of alkyd paint?

[Fowlers FuryParticipant @fowlersfury]

"Kiwi Bloke 1" ~ you're right to shun 2k paints for amateur use. The UK's HSE have published sound advice on their use in professional motor vehicle repair (MVR) facilities and this includes data on the relatively high incidence of isocyanate induced asthma within MVR workers, even when using air-fed hoods.

Methylene chloride (or dichloromethane) was used extensively in Nitromoors paint stripper and Hammerite (same company) but the risk-averse, desk-toxicologists in the EU banned its use by 2010. That's why you'll see so many references to the inability of "new" Nitromoors to strip paint !

Methylene chloride was a most useful chemical yet without getting into its complex toxicology, it is metabolised to carbon monoxide in the body after inhalation – hardly beneficial ! However the limited and infrequent exposures in well ventilated areas we had as model engineers was not IMHO a cause for concern.

I'm afraid that the environmental drive to remove volatile organic compounds (VOCs) from formulations has led to a noticeable decrease in the durability of applied paint. Evident of course when SWMBO drags you from the workshop to do some more redecorating.

As for your final paragraph about "old" paint, depends on the age of the paint originally applied. Most likely it would have been a lead-based paint. The lead had two functions (1) it was a 'drier' and (2) it afforded some measure of protection from underlying corrosion, supposedly by forming a bond with the bright steel. It is prudent when removing paint of unknown vintage to wear a dust mask otherwise inhalation of dust particles containing lead compounds is very likely. Then again, when methylene chloride based strippers were available, there was much less need to remove old paint by physical abrasion.

Hey-ho, onwards and upwards or downward and backwards ?

.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Some people in the UK have used stuff sold as military paint on ebay and reckon that they have had good results.

Old machines tended to use a rather heavy filler primer first and then some sort of enamel on top. This is what coach paints are more or less such as Tekaloid which I think is still available. One dodge with that paint is to thin with white spirits and leave for ?????????????? to dry. Several days in other words. That way it's possible to get a pretty high quality finish with a brush.

Via a spray gun i think I would try adding a retarder as I am not that skilled with them. Not sure if it's still possible to get car repair paints but with a retarder added they are fairly easy to use.

John

–

Edited By Ajohnw on 15/09/2016 17:12:11

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

Posted by Ajohnw on 15/09/2016 17:11:32:

Some people in the UK have used stuff sold as military paint on ebay and reckon that they have had good results.

Old machines tended to use a rather heavy filler primer first and then some sort of enamel on top. This is what coach paints are more or less such as Tekaloid which I think is still available. One dodge with that paint is to thin with white spirits and leave for ?????????????? to dry. Several days in other words. That way it's possible to get a pretty high quality finish with a brush.

Via a spray gun i think I would try adding a retarder as I am not that skilled with them. Not sure if it's still possible to get car repair paints but with a retarder added they are fairly easy to use.

 

 

Interesting, as most people I know who aren't going to use a booth prefer a faster activator! I make no claim to be a painter, but swapping to two-pack paint and a (cheap) HVLP gun made a massive improvement to my finishes.

A quick look in the Yellow Pages will find a local supplier of any type of car paint.

Waiting days to brush on yet another coat of enamel isn't going to happen for me. Especially as anything I brush ends up looking like it was painted by a drunk blind man with his hands tied behind his back. Not that I'm ever going to paint a machine tool.

Edited By Nicholas Wheeler 1 on 15/09/2016 17:26:44

[mark smith 20Participant @marksmith20]

I was going to use a Jotun 2 pack polyurethane on a mill im doing up at the moment but ended up using Paragon enamel (oil based alkyd). Ive used both before through the Jotun was used to paint a greenhouse frame .

The Jotun is one of the cheapest polyurethanes and when i painted the greenhouse it was very easy to apply by brush . I dont think id like to do it inside though.

After several years on the greenhouse frame it still looks the same as when applied.It is also not rock hard so doesn`t tend to chip easily. I also wouldnt even try to spray it as i dont have the safety gear. The jotun is not supposed to be as hazardess as some of the usual polys and the disocyanate they use in the one i used has been tested extensively on rats and was found to be not carcinogenic. But still a respiratory irritant. (hence id rather not spray it)

**LINK**

The reason i used the paragon was it was available in a similar colour to what i wanted off the shelf. But after painting several machines with it ,i`ve never been exactly happy with it. It chips easy and on my lathe at least it tends to wear off on parts with alot of oil contact like around the spindle nose. I never got a good finish by brush and decided to partly spray the mill as the finish is much better. One thing i like about it is that it dries pretty fast ,so you don`t have to wait days between coats.

I have also used Rustoleum combicolour (oil based alkyd) on a wood bandsaw and it was probably the easist to brush but i doubt it would hold up too well on a metalwork machine. That said it still looks almost as newly applied after several years .

I have never used any of the additives that are popular in the US for enhancing brushability etc or hardness.

I would also recommend anyone who wants to spray finish to use a cheap small compressor and a cheap 10-20 HVLP gun. Despite the ads for the guns often stating they need a quite high cfm ,ive found for smaller items they work very well indeed with oil based enamels thinned about 10% ,no need for £200 guns unless your a professional car resprayer.

Edited By mark smith 20 on 15/09/2016 19:10:11

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Kiwi Bloke1, I'm not too far away at Darfield, up until a year or so ago I was helping to build machines for feeding out large hay bales, we used single pot paint from United in Christchurch, it seems fairly durable.

Ian S C

[capnahabParticipant @capnahab]

Another vote for tractol , Great colour match for my lathe too.

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