levelling

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Last time I put in a bid on an engineers levelwas about 15 years ago, it went for over $NZ400, and the chap who got it thought he had a bargin,I gave up at the half way mark! Can’t remember if it was Moore& Wright or Starrett, there was one of each, and they were both simerally priced. I think one of these digital levels might do my needs. Ian S C

[BogstandardParticipant @bogstandard]

Ian,

 

On fleabay in the UK, they usually go for between 25 to 35 squid for a M&W, depending on the size and condition, and I think I got the clinometer for a tad under 30.

 

It was a few years ago and had to wait for the right time, but if you persevere, they are still there to be had.

 

A very worthwhile investment. I also made sure that I bought the same make in the two sizes, as the vials are the same if ever you break one.

In fact it was only yesterday that I sent one of my spare vials out to a friend in the US.

 

Repairing a M&W level 

 

Bogs

Edited By Bogstandard on 27/11/2010 08:33:44

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Hi Bogs, they had a reserve of over $NZ200,  I wanted one of them ,and a vise for the mill, the cheapest vise went for more than retail price,. The next auction I went to got a surface plate for $NZ 15, there were two of them , the first one up got $NZ60(it had handles, my one did not), I spoke to one of the fitters who used them , and was told that the $60 one was far from flat, but the one I got was OK.Ian S C

[deere_x475guyParticipant @deere_x475guy]

Posted by Bogstandard on 27/11/2010 08:25:48:

In fact it was only yesterday that I sent one of my spare vials out to a friend in the US.

 

Bogs

Edited By Bogstandard on 27/11/2010 08:33:44

 Thanks again John!

 

Bob

[BogstandardParticipant @bogstandard]

You’re very welcome Bob

 

John

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi All,

 

Can someone please enlighten me as to why levelling a lathe is so important.  Surely it is enough to ensure that there is no twist or other distortion in the bed which may affect turning.  Surely it doesn’t matter whether it lies at 20 degrees (or any other for that matter) as long as it turns accurately.

 

As for the rubber feet. I must say that I agree with you David.  I would recommend them.  Even cheap ones (such as you show) can be very effective despite what the so called self appointed ‘experts’ say.   Much better than have shock insulation rather than just shimming level and not bolting down as even a reasonably well made support cabinet will vibrate and distort in those circumstances even if held in place with silicon sealant as I have seen some recommend.  That system would allow much more movement and twist in the machine bed.  If you’re not going to bolt down firmly then it is much better to use some kind of shock absorber in thye way you have.  Please don’t let beginners get misled.

 

Terry

[BogstandardParticipant @bogstandard]

For the last century, and most probably a lot more, if you read the manufacturers manuals (which unfortunately you don’t seem to get good ones any more), you will find that they always advise to mount the machine to a rigid base and get it level and without twist.

 

Then along comes certain people who think their method is best,

 

I sure know who I would take my instructions from.

 

BTW Terry, you haven’t just joined HMEM have you, and made the same sorts of comments on one of my posts. I really enjoy destroying people in public, as will happen over there when or even if he replies.

 

 

Bogs

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Terry.

There is no fundamental reason to have a lathe bed level in the sense that one would ensure a shelf or kitchen worktop is level.

The engineers precision level is used across the bed as a means of comparing readings between the headstock and tailstock ends of the machine until the difference either disappears, or becomes so small as to become negligible.

At that point, the bed is without significant twist, and can be relied upon to be accurate in use.

However, other benefits may become apparent from having a machine bed level, such as the correct drainage of coolant and being able to setup surfaces of castings etc with a level, secure in the knowledge it will be parallel the the machine bed.

 

Martin.

[Steve GarnettParticipant @stevegarnett62550]

Posted by Terryd on 29/11/2010 22:18:44:

Can someone please enlighten me as to why levelling a lathe is so important.  Surely it is enough to ensure that there is no twist or other distortion in the bed which may affect turning.  Surely it doesn’t matter whether it lies at 20 degrees (or any other for that matter) as long as it turns accurately.

 

 

One thing we discovered at work some while back was that if you don’t have a level, solid floor to mount machines on, it takes rather less vibration than you might think to get them to migrate their positions over time. Does levelling the machine on an unlevel floor improve things? All I can say is that it seemed to, both with a 2 ton mill and the lathe. The mounts we used on the lathe were certainly a lot more reluctant to move than the lathe was without them, so this certainly helped, but…

 

The installation instructions that came with my Kerry lathe recommend quite specifically that it should be bolted to the floor through suitable packing, having been levelled carefully in all directions first, and that periodic checks should be made on the foundations it’s bolted to to ensure that settling doesn’t destroy the initial alignment. Having had all this trouble previously with vibration, I have to say that these recommendations make good sense to me now. And I would have thought that the Kerry warning about settlement and periodic checks would apply to quite a few ‘domestic’ installations; most garage concrete floors aren’t generally that thick, and unless you laid yours yourself and have good knowledge of the ground conditions, it would be worth at least an annual check.

 

So I’d say that there was a good chance that the old advice to get things level wasn’t just about turning – there’s definitely more to it than that.

[John OlsenParticipant @johnolsen79199]

One reason for levelling that applies more to milling machines and shapers is the idea that you can set up a job in the vice with the desired face level or vertical using your precision level. This can apparently sometimes be a good way to work, for instance if you are setting up something that cannot easily be set level to the table or vice ways. However, this remains a theoretical concept to me since I don’t possess a precision level, and none of my machines are either levelled or even bolted to the floor anyway. The lathe is bolted with shims to a very substantial stand and has been checked for turning true, so the ways are not twisted, but would not be level either.

 

I haven’t had any trouble with machines walking, not even the 18″ shaper, although you can feel it anywhere in the house when it is working hard. This doesn’t mean that I don’t think it is a good idea, just I have never got around to it….

 

regards

John

[Steve GarnettParticipant @stevegarnett62550]

Posted by John Olsen on 30/11/2010 03:05:35:

 

I haven’t had any trouble with machines walking, not even the 18″ shaper, although you can feel it anywhere in the house when it is working hard. This doesn’t mean that I don’t think it is a good idea, just I have never got around to it….

 

 

I suspect that all this might mean is that your floor (unlike in our workshop) is about level, and the machine is rocking on it. If that happens in a linear-ish manner then it probably won’t alter its position at all – it’ll just rock. If your floor sloped appreciably, I think it might be a rather different matter!

 

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, with ref to John’s post, 30/11/10, yes it is ideal to have the mill table level for a referance point to set up your work, but you can still do that if it isn’t. The best way is to use an angle gauge or graduated precision level and read what angle your table is and then just add or subtract that to the level you want your work at.

I have one of these digital protractors, which you can set to zero at any level and then it will give you the direct differance at any other angle and there are little arrows on the left of the digits to show if it is up or down, but in most cases it is obvious.

 

Very handy and not terrable expensive, its resolution is 0.1 degree.

 

Regards Nick

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 30/11/2010 11:16:55

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi John,

 

Thanks for a down to earth evaluation.  With regard to setting up work with a precision level, surely if you have a least two datum points on the job,  which is what one needs for a level (or a perfectly flat surface, which would be difficult to guarantee I would have thought), you can use a dial gauge in the quill.  Would that not be intrinsically more accurate as you are setting to the machine?

 

 hope that makes sense

 

Terry

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi Nick,

 

the IPhone App I mentioned earlier can do the same, and it can be used flat to give two axis of level or on edge to give one axis.  And as i said I use it on a relatively inexpensive IPod Touch (1st generation,2nd hand off eBay). and the IPod Touch can be used to store my music, calculate,  Store drawings and videos (useful ones such as techniques off YouTube etc) and many other things.

 

Some people think I am suggesting one should buy one of these devices to use as a level, I’m not, it’s just a cheap way to get a precision level (0.1 degree sensitivity) level if you already have an IPod Touch or IPhone (or even IPad but that’s a bit too exotic).

 

Terry

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Terry, I understood your post about the IPhone and appreciate its values. Idon’t have one and agree with you that is not expected one should buy an IPhone just on that merit. I just pointed out what I have that was not too expensive, but low cost dail angle gauges can work as well. Digital gives you a figure, whereas you might argue with yourself is it above or below the line with a dial. People with ungoolgeled eyes of course can read dials easyer than I can.

 

Regards Nick.

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi Nick,

 

Of course I quite agree with you and understood where you’re coming from.  The IPhone app. also gives readings and can be zeroed in a similar way to which you are describing.  If I was in your position I would probably do the same and buy an inexpensive digital instrument.

 

The use of a dial gauge would of course be similar to tramming the machine to check accuracy.  The main point that seems to be coming up that absolute ‘level’ is not really required, it seems that beginners are often put off by the seeming complexity which is pushed by some and are afraid to use the machines unless perfection is achieved in setting up etc whereas perfectly acceptable results are achievable with less than perfect set ups.

 

Terry

Edited By Terryd on 30/11/2010 15:41:41

[PeeweeParticipant @peewee]

Thany you for all the hints and tips.  the reason behind the leveling goes back to my apprentice days and the old men who instructed us nailed it into our heads that everything in the shop had to be set up perfectly and maintained acordingly.  may be ott but i dont have the experiance to contradict this training.

 

best regards

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

I musta dmit i am one of those people who looks at  pristine workshop photos and wonders how anything can ever be made in them. I have my workshop vac and a few different brushes and they make sure all criticval surfaces are clean most of the time

 

How would I level my lathe with swarf? I just push bits of it under one of the feet…

 

Finally iphone level may have a precision of 0.1 degree, forgive me if I am sceptical about the accuracy…

 

Neil

 

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi Neil,

 

Despite your scepticism the IPhone app is remarkably accurate, i have checked it against a standard level.  I was sceptical at first, but thought ‘Damn the expense’ I can afford to throw away 49p. 

 

Also I didn’t have to push the swarf under, it wriggled there itself (sorry, is that too OT).

 

Terry

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi Peewee,

 

If you haven’t done your levelling yet, try this, manual which is from an American (mainly) 9×20 site.  It has been developed by the users and contains some excellent instructions for aligning and levelling.  You probably don’t have the same lathe but most of the instructions are generic to most hobby lathes.

 

It makes a good read.  They also mention ‘Rollie’s dad’s’ method a lot, it describes a way of checking twist in the bed when bolting down without having to use using a precision bar.  It may not suit the ‘perfectionists’ but it works well enough for home use purposes.  There is also a YouTube video of it being carried out, worth a look.

 

It may help, regards

 

Terry

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