LED “Fluorescent” tubes…

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

I'm looking for suitable lighting to illuminate the new workshop and have been gravitating towards LED battens such as this 60W / 6' long device. I'll be picking one up today or tomorrow and checking it out. If it looks like a good 'un, I will get some more.

In general, LED lighting seems to have an "efficiency" of around 100 Lumens per Watt, regardless of size. Some are worse (like the Cree torch above) and of course the specifications reported are subject to various errors and distortions(!). However, the interesting point is that you see a very similar value for fluorescent strips.

On the face of it, you won't get any significant energy savings by swapping to LED but will do away with those nasty glass tubes and should enjoy a more constant output (less obvious ageing over the lifetime). I'd make certain to get an HF ballast again if I went fluorescent (to get instant, flicker-free startup).

As I said above, there is a difference between lifetime and reliability. Fluorescents have a fairly predictable and progressive wearout mechanism, whereas LEDs don't really. It's easy enough to buy a crappy light of either sort that fails well before the normal end of life of course. I hope to fit and forget, rather than have to teeter about on a ladder waving large glass tubes about like light sabers in a year or two.

Murray

[Martin 100Participant @martin100]

There are continuing safety issues with quite a number of LED fluorescent retrofits, some would appear to be accepted in the country of manufacture, many would not be acceptable in the workplace in the UK nor would they be permitted for sale to the general public.

But like the LED sewing light powered from the mains that was discussed in here a few months ago, that had seriously inadequate mains LV separation they could be lethal, and often for reasons that may not be immediately apparent without destructive dismantling and internal examination.

Another possible failure mode that surfaced quite recently is with regards to mains separation from the pcb on which the LED's are mounted to the unearthed tube heatsink / housing metalwork.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Bfgw7LbWJI

 

Edited By Martin 100 on 21/11/2016 13:38:19

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

As well as the risk of electric shock, many of the unofficial imports also lack any sensible EMC precautions, so radio interference etc seems to be quite commonplace.

I wouldn't dream of buying stuff like this off ebay, most likely direct from China. By law, products that are sold in the EU (still including the UK) have to meet standards that control construction and performance. Regardless of any political axe to be ground, CE marking and the LVD are very sensible measures. These regulations pretty much ensure that the risks you identify are minimised.

[JAParticipant @ja]

Replaced light above lathe today with a 1200 Lm LED "kitchen cabinet" strip light from Screwfix. The result looks good but has not been used in anger. The actual light did strike me as being a bit flimsy.

JA

[Geoff TheasbyParticipant @geofftheasby]

The 'CE' marking is self-certified, and widely abused esp. in products from the Far East. I got involved in testing our satcoms product, 20 years ago, which is how I found out. Our product was taken to a Test House down South, and passed its tests, but you can buy the CE sticker or have it printed on your product without any proof that you are legit.

Geoff

[NilochParticipant @niloch]

Contributors to this post might be interested in Brian Block's experiences of LED lighting here:

**LINK**

Brian is from Northern Kentucky so products might be different. (As an aside his channel is well worth viewing; surely few home machinists have a 20 ton boring mill and a 15 ton bridge crane).

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Posted by Geoff Theasby on 21/11/2016 16:09:29:

The 'CE' marking is self-certified, and widely abused esp. in products from the Far East. …..you can buy the CE sticker or have it printed on your product without any proof that you are legit.

Geoff

Right – which is why you should buy from a legit outfit such as Screwfix / B&Q or similar. Made in Far East but properly CE marked etc.

[ZebethyalParticipant @zebethyal]

When I wired up my garage I installed 10 x 2 foot IP65 dual fluorescent fittings, wired in 3 banks on separate switches, these take 2 x T8 18W fluorescent tubes that cost me £1.49 ex VAT each at Selco, I could probably get the tubes even cheaper if I really tried.

I installed them nearly 3 years ago and have yet to have one fail, even with regularly leaving them on all day, they have an electronic ballast that lights them immediately – no buzzing or visible flicker.

I did consider LED tubes, but when a single LED tube costs more than 6 of the fluorescent tubes – cheapest price I have found is £7.70 each, with some over £18.00, the fittings only cost 11.35 each new, the LED tubes give just half of the energy saving – 9W vs 18W.

If I left all 20 tubes on for 8 hours a day, the cost for 360W at 11.2p per kWh would be 32.25p per day, so with the LED tubes and a saving of 16.12p a day, it would take me 3 years at 8 hours every day of the year usage to claw back the cost (assuming they last that long – nearly 9000 hours).

With my average usage of closer to 8 hours a week, and usually only 12 tubes on at a time, it would take decades – I think i will stick to the cheap fluorescents that are still going strong.

Edited By Zebethyal on 22/11/2016 11:45:27

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

If you approach this with the notion that you choose either an LED "tube" or a fluorescent "tube", surely you are not comparing apples with apples. LEDs don't have replaceable elements because they basically don't wear out, whereas fluorescent ones do. Most LED fittings are fit and forget. If they fail you replace the whole thing. The reason that LED "tubes" are offered is so that you can lift a fluorescent tube out and slot an LED one in its place, using the existing fittings, perhaps having to change the starter etc in the process.

It looks to me as if there are very little if any energy savings to be made changing to LED but there is the promise of less swapping out of tubes over the years. Industrial users often swap out all of the tubes in a room in one go rather than replace them as they fail. It's hardly an issue for home users, especially as most of us seem to spend more time sitting down than actually out in the workshop(!!).

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

We have had tubes last for 5 years or more but all of them that are regularly used are self starters – no separate starter. 5 years is an understatement as I have fitted 3 in total during the 28 years we have been here but I get the impression that the newer ones don't last as long but that could depend on make. The 2 most used are now fitted with narrow dia more efficient tubes and electronic ballasts. One of those has been going for a couple of years.

We've recently fitted some led lamps to replace cfl's. It's been interesting. In the lounge I went for a bit under 5000k which I know will be fine despite what many people reckon. We bought some more recently with the max efficiency rating. My son bought them actually. 2,700k. They are way brighter than the cfl's we had fitted. phillips made them. I had been having problems with 2 D lights in a bathroom. Current surges making one just flicker when it was colder. They are both self starters. I noticed that Toolstation sell some 4w and 6000K plus so fitted both of those. Instructions state ballast ok but short out any starter. The interesting aspect is that these don't have the top A rating. I've long suspected that they include all of this blue that we can barely detect to get the colour temperature up and going on the light output from these I think I'm correct. I wonder if they account for this in the ratings. 6000k and white tiles etc don't look like a good idea to me either.

When the wall came down we had 5000k photo proofing tube lighting at one end and 3000k warm white at the other end, It was pretty obvious. Now the new wall is up it's fine and our eyes auto adjust if we look at the space for a door in the 5000k area, White is still white. The 3000k tube blends well with daylight coming through a window too. It faces north.

John

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[ZebethyalParticipant @zebethyal]

I am also fine with the idea of replacing the light fitting itself with a new LED one, but if the LED unit is significantly more expensive, I am still not going to see any savings any time soon.

For my scenario, a like for like replacement would be with a 2 foot LED batten which costs around £18.00, so about the same cost as a pair of replacement tubes, or £3.00 more expensive than my current setup as new and at 20W, it is still a little over half the cost to run. If I was installing from scratch, I am still looking at nearly 200 days of 8 hours a day usage to claw back the difference, or again 3 years of 8 hour days to claw back the replacement costs.

The notion that LEDs don't fail, or fail less often is not what your average home user sees, I can't comment on industrial quality lighting, but at the consumer quality level, LEDs don't even seem to last as long as non LED and are often many times the price, making them somewhat of a false economy.

I am all for energy saving lighting, but when the maths don't add up, I fail to see the point. Once the products available actually start living up to the manufacturer claims with regards to lifespan, maybe it will make more sense.

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Since several posters seem not to have read what I originally posted, I'll just say again that I bought replacements for all our 1200 mm tubes for less than a fiver each online – see the link in the OP. (Single tubes at B&Q are £6.) Unless I have to take down the fitting for cleaning, it takes about 10 minutes to convert the wiring. The result is a brighter light that's completely quiet and comes on instantly. I think the consumption is about half that of the tubes they replace. We'll see about longevity but so far so good. Another 7 to fit today.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Following the death of the supplied conventional bulb in my drill press, I replaced with a Diall (B&Q) LED one for about £2.99. It was hard finding a small bulb with an ES base (instead of SES) and it's too large to let me fit the cover, but as it has a plastic outer shell I don't think this matters. It's brighter and slightly protruding means it gives a better spread of light.

Neil

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Worth visiting Ikea, they seem to no longer stock conventional bayonet bulbs but instead do a natty ES to bayonet converter, two for a quid IIRC. And I think they have other styles, possibly including ES to mini ES?

[Alan Wood 4Participant @alanwood4]

I have used so called 'Angel Lights' from Ebay as an illuminator on my VMB mill and my drill press. They arrive with a plastic lens over them which easily comes off. They come in various diameter sizes.

As delivered they are designed to run off 12V (think they are for motor industry light clusters) but there is a small switching regulator in the lead so a lower supply is delivered to the cluster. I hot glued a small magnet to the regulator case and this keeps the leads out of the way when clagged to the machine casing.

I turned a lump of Acetol to fit the machine shaft with nylon lock screws with a grove for the cluster.

It is worth ordering a larger diameter than actually needed to avoid shadowing from the chuck.

First picture is with background lights off, second one with them on.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Funny how the 'modern' bayonet fitting is disappearing in favour of the Edison Screw fittings that are as old as light bulbs themselves!

Neil

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

This despite the BC system being better in my view. It's because the ES system is used worldwide, and so it's cheaper to make just one type. And no, Brexit won't make any difference unless we ban ES, which won't happen.

On another tack, I just bought some electrical equipment from a UK supplier. It is CE marked, but has a 3 pin plug which doesn't have a fuse built in. Is this allowed?

[john swift 1Participant @johnswift1]

No, but not un expected when you buy China Export

the fuse should be there to protect the mains flex since the 32A fuse/breaker for the ring main isn't going to protect it (or the plug and socket !)

John

 

Edited By john swift 1 on 27/11/2016 17:50:49

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

If Led bulbs reduce the load on a lighting circuit should we reduce the size of the fuse/breaker? I think our total house lighting load (all led) is less than 1.5amps with a 6 amp RCBO circuit breaker in consumer unit.

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

I guess you could, but the RCBO is to protect the wiring not the lights, so it shouldn't matter as the fault current will be much larger than the consumption. As LED lights become ubiquitous probably the RCBO rating on lighting circuits will be reduced, but we might also change over to a lower voltage structured wiring system which would make life easier.

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

There is a chain of shops in NZ called "Bed Bath and Beyond", and each branch has shelves of LED light bulbs, all with ES bases. I asked how they were selling/very few. Some new houses here have ES light sockets, but at least 90% still have bayonet fittings. Great business decision there, they have had them over a year now, and out of three shops I'v visited, they have sold at the most a couple of dozen. These adapters sound interesting, have not seen them yet.

Ian S C

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

May be they should offer a free adapter E27 to B22-female-male

Edited By Bob Brown 1 on 28/11/2016 08:29:36

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

" These adapters sound interesting, have not seen them yet.

Fleebay littered with suppliers. Adds quite a bit to "Length" of bulb though.

Regards Ian.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by duncan webster on 27/11/2016 17:26:01:

On another tack, I just bought some electrical equipment from a UK supplier. It is CE marked, but has a 3 pin plug which doesn't have a fuse built in. Is this allowed?

No, the problem is that some countries use similar unfused plugs on low-amperage spurs rather than the UK's heavy duty ring mains.

If you buy one direct from from Honk Kong you are the importer and could get nicked fro bringing in dangerous goods!

Neil

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Posted by Ian S C on 28/11/2016 08:22:06:

There is a chain of shops in NZ called "Bed Bath and Beyond", and each branch has shelves of LED light bulbs, all with ES bases. I asked how they were selling/very few. Some new houses here have ES light sockets, but at least 90% still have bayonet fittings. Great business decision there, they have had them over a year now, and out of three shops I'v visited, they have sold at the most a couple of dozen. These adapters sound interesting, have not seen them yet.

Ian S C

Interesting. There is a large N American chain of the same name but it seems the NZ company has no relation to it. So you can't even blame some naive Mercan for that decision. Is the availability driven by a nearby market that uses 230V ES such as Oz, China etc?

I discovered that the N American market uses different sized ES fitting for their candelabra-sized bulbs (E12 vs E14) . That's quite sensible given the otherwise possibility of screwing a 110V bulb into a 230V socket which may not bear thinking about. However, it seems that the larger (E26 and E27) bulbs are interchangeable. There seem to be many sizes of ES fitting.

Incidentally, it's interesting to compare the "luminous efficiency" of various types of bulb. As noted above, the LED and fluorescent lamps have very similar figures (10-15%) compared to 2-3% for incandescent bulbs. You won't save a lot of energy changing from fluorescent to LED but you might choose them for other reasons.

Murray

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