Lead Bearing Solder is Banned

[vintage engineerParticipant @vintageengineer]

I make my own using old tankards and lead pipes.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Robin on 14/11/2018 01:47:28:

…

Here's a piece of lead/pewter, an apostle cap, a dinky spout for pouring gunpowder into your matchlock musq't.

It must have been lost c1640 then waited for a metal detectorist to visit the battlefield, recover it and sell it on eBay.

The lead has hardly degraded, even the little loops for the strings are stil there. I don't think lead in landfill is half the problem it is made out to be.

With respect Robin, that's not evidence! Big jump from a photo of an interesting survival to 'I don't think lead in landfill is half the problem it is made out to be.' There's plenty of evidence that Lead is poisonous.

Personal experience can be highly misleading. "I tried that a few times and got away with it" isn't helpful when it comes to appreciating risk. You need at least a thousand samples to get a reliable understanding of just how dangerous or safe something is. In my youth I accidentally gave myself several electric shocks. As I survived with no ill-effects, it's obvious that 250VAC mains isn't dangerous, right? No. Given unlucky circumstances, any of those shocks could have killed me. Whatever my personal experience of surviving shocks, trust me, it's much safer to turn the power off before messing with electricity! Ditto Lead poisoning – it's not safe.

The legislation is designed to reduce large scale use of Lead by industry. That's a good thing. Unfortunately, it looks as if it's also going to wallop us as well, which is a pain, even though the risk posed by hobbyists using Lead on a small scale is minimal.

Dave

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

There is, fortunately, no ban on me using it and I have more than adequate stocks for the rest of my time in this hobby world.

As breathing polluted air is also bad for us, we should all stop breathing!!

[FarmboyParticipant @farmboy]

If you sup your ale from a pewter tankard, apparently you should drink it quickly so it's not in contact with the metal for too long

[RobinParticipant @robin]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 14/11/2018 10:18:35:

With respect Robin, that's not evidence! Big jump from a photo of an interesting survival to 'I don't think lead in landfill is half the problem it is made out to be.' There's plenty of evidence that Lead is poisonous.

I wouldn't suggest lead acetate, the so called Sugar of Lead ,as a sweetener. That's been tried in the past with terrible consequences. I have a pot of it for making slow match, it burns without the hard coal you get with saltpetre.

Anyway, how is the lead in the solder going to poison me? Not by inhalation, I do a lot of soldering and it is always the tin that boils off leaving a pasty lead crust behind. I suppose not washing my hands before eating a sandwich might be my downfall.

I remember some workman showing us a terrible cut across the palm side of his fingers he had got from lead flashing. He had a decorative hankie knotted over it and everyone was muttering about lead poisoning. This was the 1950's and I was already expert on skinned knees, I reckoned it just looked like it needed drying out.

Anyway, I appreciate your concern, I will take more care around the dreaded Plum bum and strongly suggest nobody looks to me for Health and Safety advice.

[Martin WParticipant @martinw]

What's the panic? Suppliers like CPC are still selling 60/40 tin/lead solder up to 500g reels. I know legislation has required that it is not used in currently produce equipment, to protect landfill etc. but so far this has not been applied to selling this type of solder. Not having bothered to read the full thread I am willing to stand corrected

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Martin W on 15/11/2018 00:19:51:

What's the panic? [ … ]

Not having bothered to read the full thread I am willing to stand corrected

.

I can only suggest that you read the opening post … or even just the opening paragraph.

MichaelG.

[Martin WParticipant @martinw]

Thanks Michael but it would appear that even the big companies are not restricting the sale of tin/lead solder yet nor have they indicated that they intend to or that they have been asked to look into stopping the sale. So while this status quo exists I am happy. That said I have enough tin/lead solder to keep me going for a long time yet and I am not adverse to using the lead free version as I have not, as yet, had any problems with using this.

Cheers

Martin W

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

Can I suggest that the comment by SOD about electric shocks is not really relevant? A belt from the mains either kills or it doesn't. Lead is cumulative: it builds up in the body with increasing effects on the system until something gives way. Rather like alcohol effects on liver – getting thoroughly pissed might do you no subsequent harm, but a bottle of wine a day very well might.

And the comparison between a field of ordinary earth and a modern rubbish tip is equally questionable. Spring Water – so popular that it sells for more than petrol – filters through the earth. There is no sale for water that drains through land-fill, in fact you can be charged to get rid of it.

Just trying to keep the discussion balanced in scientific terms.

Tim

PS how much does my wife need to pay me before I count as 'professional' so I can use up my stock of lead solder?

Edited By Tim Stevens on 15/11/2018 15:32:05

[Swarf, Mostly!Participant @swarfmostly]

Posted by Tim Stevens on 15/11/2018 15:30:30:

SNIP

And the comparison between a field of ordinary earth and a modern rubbish tip is equally questionable. Spring Water – so popular that it sells for more than petrol – filters through the earth. There is no sale for water that drains through land-fill, in fact you can be charged to get rid of it.

Just trying to keep the discussion balanced in scientific terms.

Tim

PS how much does my wife need to pay me before I count as 'professional' so I can use up my stock of lead solder?

Edited By Tim Stevens on 15/11/2018 15:32:05

I'm no expert on landfill sites but such acquaintance as I did have told me that the modern sites are separated from groundwater by impermeable membranes.

Best regards,

Swarf, Mostly!

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

I suspect this is another scare story. The regulation is clearly aimed at stuff you will possibly put in your mouth or ingest by some other means. Not many people are given to chewing circuit boards, but the HSE will never tell you something is OK in case some daft judge deems it to be not OK in future. In the meantime ebay has loads of it for sale, and I'm about to buy some lead sheet to mend my roof. OK the contractor will buy it on my behalf, but I'll be paying for it eventually. Even if they do manage to stop sale in the UK I'll still be able to get it from China, and they don't seem to be making buying or possession an offence.

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

For those still addicted to 60/40 lead solder, I always find it easy to use, then it is still available on Banggood and probably will be for as long as any of us will need it.

Dave W

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Posted by Robin on 15/11/2018 00:03:38:

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 14/11/2018 10:18:35:

With respect Robin, that's not evidence! Big jump from a photo of an interesting survival to 'I don't think lead in landfill is half the problem it is made out to be.' There's plenty of evidence that Lead is poisonous.

I wouldn't suggest lead acetate, the so called Sugar of Lead ,as a sweetener. That's been tried in the past with terrible consequences. I have a pot of it for making slow match, it burns without the hard coal you get with saltpetre.

Anyway, how is the lead in the solder going to poison me? Not by inhalation, I do a lot of soldering and it is always the tin that boils off leaving a pasty lead crust behind. I suppose not washing my hands before eating a sandwich might be my downfall.

I remember some workman showing us a terrible cut across the palm side of his fingers he had got from lead flashing. He had a decorative hankie knotted over it and everyone was muttering about lead poisoning. This was the 1950's and I was already expert on skinned knees, I reckoned it just looked like it needed drying out.

Anyway, I appreciate your concern, I will take more care around the dreaded Plum bum and strongly suggest nobody looks to me for Health and Safety advice.

I hope you have a EPP licence for the lead acetate

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/supplying-explosives-precursors/supplying-explosives-precursors-and-poison

and

https://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=136405

Robert.

[Danny M2ZParticipant @dannym2z]

Legislation banning lead wheel weights is already in place in some jurisdictions **LINK**

I actually put a few in the lead pot (about 5%) when casting lead projectiles for my muzzle-loader, the antimony content gives harder projectiles.

So I wonder when lead fishing weights are going to be banned, can't be good for the waterways with people deliberately chucking lumps of lead into them.

Lead shot for duck hunting is already banned here in Australia but not for clay target shooting.

* Danny M *

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Lead fishing weights up to 28 g are already banned in the UK; https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/1992/made

Russell

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

Strange how un-Leading fuel was supposed the save Numptyfying the ankle biters of the period, but a bit like making something foolproof, you generate a better class of fool.

My stock of 60/40 will outlast me, as already stated, to un/re solder unleaded joints, wet with good ole 60/40 first. Cracked joints due to Tin only soldering in electronics abound due to lack of resilience and lets not even start on Cadmium free Silver solders.

Regards Ian.

[RobinParticipant @robin]

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 18/11/2018 21:18:17:

I hope you have a EPP licence for the lead acetate

Thanks for that useful warning. Did you know that according to Arthur Ransome, duffers are likely to meet a watery end? Take care around boats. Here's something else I should not have…

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Danny M2Z on 18/11/2018 23:04:08:

So I wonder when lead fishing weights are going to be banned, can't be good for the waterways with people deliberately chucking lumps of lead into them.

About 25 years ago over here, along with lead shot. We got fed up of all the dead waterbirds with gizzards full of shot.

Neil

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

Stupid is as stupid does!

I am just tired of the ever increasing legislation intruding on every day life! Yes without doubt there is some well intentioned and well meaning 'rules' imposed that make perfect sense. However, the one thing in recent years to creep into the safety arena is risk assesment, another sensible process but the application of its principles to the need to legislate seems quite often missed. The controls on acid being a good example, I wonder how long it will be before kitchen knives are banned altogether or have to be licensed??

The exponentially increasing focus on general safety seems to be generating a similar decrease in common sense and self preservation. The general population these days seem incapable of assessing risk for themselves and act with a general expectation that if something is not safe, someone else will tell them, there will be a sign, a fence or other measure to protect them! All new legislation has the men in wigs rubbing their hands at the opportunity of new revenue streams to explore and milk!

I am now off to machine some leaded bronze bearing slippers and will be looking over my shoulder wondering how I should dispose of the swarf, is there a standard size mouth gauge yet like the letter gauges at the post office that I can use to determine if the finished product is dangerous?

Paul.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Paul Kemp on 19/11/2018 13:16:15:

Stupid is as stupid does!

…

The exponentially increasing focus on general safety seems to be generating a similar decrease in common sense and self preservation. The general population these days seem incapable of assessing risk for themselves and act with a general expectation that if something is not safe, someone else will tell them, there will be a sign, a fence or other measure to protect them! …

Paul.

Well Paul, let's apply the acid test. Can you prove or offer evidence, not hearsay, in support of any the following:

• the focus on safety is increasing exponentially
• improving safety is harmful
• the general population these days have become 'incapable of assessing risk for themselves'
• the general population in times past were in fact better at assessing risk
• there is any such thing as 'common sense' as opposed to applied logic and learning
• anyone blunders about expecting to be warned about dangers by someone else. Name one!

An interesting possibility is that much of the population, especially those who grew up close to lead-in-petrol traffic, are suffering now from lead poisoning. Anyone else suffering irritability, memory problems, intellectual disability, cognitive problems, loss of concentration, preferring emotion to logic, malaise, anxiety, insomnia, or tiredness? How about becoming moody, aggressive, angry, fearful of strangers, or even a just little paranoid. I'm not sure it's good for me to believe that everyone else is bonkers, but I DO…

I think much legislation is due to over-population. No need for laws when you live alone on a desert island. Sadly, being crammed up tight with thousands of neighbours makes it essential to have rules. I doubt Paul would be happy if I moved in next door and started scrapping old car batteries and mass producing lead soldiers. Naturally, because it's cheap, I will melt the lead by burning old tyres. Also, I shall protect my property with barbed wire, a couple of mistreated Ridgebacks, and an Assault rifle. No problem – I'm a libertarian.

Dave

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 19/11/2018 14:50:07

[RobinParticipant @robin]

SODu if you want examples, try Googling "Nanny State".

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

I am convinced that the general population are incapable of risk assessing for themselves due to the amount of lead ingested from leaded fuels that were prevalent a few decades ago, we definitely need the “Nanny State” to look after us all now.🤪

Dave W

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

SOD, well two examples in the last week. 1st, university student colleague of daughter signed up for a student union trampoline activity, fell awkwardly and broke ankle, now asserting that despite a safety lecture by instructor the student union as a body did nothing to physically prevent his injury and by organising the activity is responsible so is now instigating legal action against the student union. 2nd, last Friday the last of my father in laws vintage vehicles having been sold was being collected. It had not moved for 20 years so had to be extracted from garage at 90 degrees to road using winch on recovery truck. Truck parked in road, big yellow lights flashing on top, winch wire attached and as winching commenced woman approaches on foot. Despite footpath being clearly blocked by the wire stretching from ankle height up at an angle to the flat bed and the car slowly emerging with the associated noise of the winch she continued to walk towards it until I stopped her. Apparently there should have been footpath closed signs and barriers, a verbal warning was insufficient, her seeing the situation and making her own decision to cross the road, definitely off the agenda.

Plenty of other examples from safety management meetings I had to attend between 2002 and 2008 where all incident reports, injury and near miss were analysed for trends. Could not believe the increasing numbers of people (travelling public) shutting their fingers in the hinge side of toilet door cubicles and other doors on site. Insurers insisted on the fitting of hinge guards to all doors. None of the doors had been changed so what lead to the vast increase in incidents? Why would you have your fingers anywhere near the hinge side of the door?

Agreed my 'opinion' is based on subjective interpretation of 'evidence'.

But returning to the OP how does this discriminatory legislation significantly reduce the overall amount of lead used? There must be figures somewhere to show the amount of solder sold to the amateur market as opposed to the professional which apparently remains unaffected? The proportion of lead used by professionals must outweigh the amount used by ametuers by a massive amount? Is there eveidence to show a high proportion of ametuer users are suffering lead poisoning? Fair enough if a conscious decision has been taken to prevent the use of lead altogether but the implication of this ruling is a professional can be trusted to handle the stuff and continue to introduce it to the environment as they see fit but it's far too dangerous for the likes of you and me to have it in the house? Where is your evidence to support that theory? Surely if it really is a concern a health warning could be imposed on the packaging alowing the end user to decide if they expose themselves to the risk or control the risk using PPE? No, apparently it has been decided the non professional general populace cannot be trusted with lead solder……….

Paul.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Robin on 19/11/2018 15:30:29:

SODu if you want examples, try Googling "Nanny State".

Unfortunately Robin I can't agree to that! See 'Confirmation Bias'. Unwise to Google pejoratives like 'Nanny State' unless you understand the results require careful filtering. How much is fact and how much is opinion or hearsay?

What is your mystery item?

My guess is it's the ejector from an 4.7" anti-aircraft gun which I would use to discourage feral pigeons and noisy private aircraft.

Dave

[RobinParticipant @robin]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 20/11/2018 13:44:58:

What is your mystery item?

I'm not sure I want to tell, because you lot might tell me it isn't what I bought it as and burst my bubble. I really enjoy owning the rifling cutter for a Lewis gun

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