Lead Bearing Solder is Banned

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 08/11/2018 17:27:25:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 08/11/2018 17:20:25:

If you follow your link, it's no more than 2.5% Pb…

.

Please Sir … Is 2.5 less than 0.3

oops… sorry!

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Dave Halford on 08/11/2018 19:18:31:

Posted by Muzzer on 08/11/2018 17:32:43:

AFAIK it's actually illegal to use leaded solder on potable water joints in the UK…

Murray

It seems a little OTT when almost every per 60's house in Britain has an average of 10M of lead pipe feeding the drinking water

Perhaps that explains why so many of us are losing our marbles!

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

Does anyone know the composition of Carr’s Solder Paint, how much lead does it contain, if any .

Dave W

[Kiwi BlokeParticipant @kiwibloke62605]

Crikey! Lots of churches have lead roofs. Think of the volume of toxic water run-off when it rains. No wonder the surrounding ground is usually full of dead people…

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Kiwi Bloke 1 on 08/11/2018 20:14:10:

Crikey! Lots of churches have lead roofs. Think of the volume of toxic water run-off when it rains. No wonder the surrounding ground is usually full of dead people…

.

Brilliant

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Samsaranda on 08/11/2018 20:00:24:

Does anyone know the composition of Carr’s Solder Paint, how much lead does it contain, if any .

.

Certainly some, if their web page is to be believed.

https://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/products/carrs/soldering/soldercreams/c1040

MichaelG.

.

P.S.

Having never used it, I have to ask: What is so special about it to justify the price ?

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 08/11/2018 20:30:34

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

There's been a bit in the paper, and on the radio/tv news about excess lead in some water taps being sold in NZ, how much lead do you get out of the kitchen tap? It's brass, and probably chrome plated.

What happens when someone dies because something banned was not used and it's replacement failed.

I suppose that these health and safety bloke have not found out that air is not good for you, everyone that breaths dies.

Ian S C

[Adam StevensonParticipant @adamstevenson91624]

Wait till they find out how bad dihydrogen monoxide is, every one that comes into contact with it will die at some,point. Too little or too much you die.

[FarmboyParticipant @farmboy]

Posted by Kiwi Bloke 1 on 08/11/2018 20:14:10:

Crikey! Lots of churches have lead roofs. Think of the volume of toxic water run-off when it rains. No wonder the surrounding ground is usually full of dead people…

Totally off-topic, tenuous link : Someone in our local planning department must have a sense of humour. When they built the new police station in town someone specified copper sheeting for the roof . . . I'll get me coat . . .

[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

Considering that a third of a million tons of lead were introduced into the environment via tetraethyl lead in motor cars every year for a number of decades, any toxicity worries regarding solder are complete and utter paranoia. Similarly, the existence of lead water supply pipes is not a significant issue except in areas that have acidic water that hasn't been chlorinated. It should be noted that areas that do have acidic water use lime beds at the treatment works to reduce corrosion of the steel water mains and that chlorine injection is standard practice in the UK.

It isn't the mandarins in the EU, it's the typical British over-enthusiasm for implementing regulations For The Good Of The People.

Bah! Humbug!

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Mark Rand on 09/11/2018 11:00:00:

Considering that a third of a million tons of lead were introduced into the environment via tetraethyl lead in motor cars every year for a number of decades, any toxicity worries regarding solder are complete and utter paranoia. …

It isn't the mandarins in the EU, it's the typical British over-enthusiasm for implementing regulations For The Good Of The People.

 

Bah! Humbug!

Solder isn't particularly toxic in use or in soldered joints. The problem comes later! When old electronics corrode in land-fill, lead compounds leach out into the water table, and eventually find their way back to us via food and drinking water. The process can take several decades. The risks aren't to individuals using solder, the risk is to the population later. Similar issue to my car. My little car isn't a pollution problem, it's the other 30,000,000 in the UK causing the trouble!

How serious a problem Lead in water pipes is depends mostly on how acid the water in your area is. Not so likely in the UK, but there are many good examples in the US. In Flint, Michigan, a slapdash decision to switch water supply to a cheaper source (an acidic local river requiring extra chlorination), caused lead to dissolve in the city's pipework on a large scale. Apart from long term ill-health, General Motors stopped making engines in Flint because the water damaged the parts leading President Trump to remark "It used to be that cars were made in Flint and you couldn't drink the water in Mexico. Now cars are made in Mexico, and you can't drink the water in Flint. That's terrible." Later, President Trump blocked publication of a report into 3000 other towns and cities in the US that may have similar problems with lead due to ageing pipes – it's a political hot potato. The cost of the Flint mistake will be over $1Bn and the 100,000 people who live there will be cooking with bottled water for another 6 years.

Bottom line with toxicity – you have to watch out for things that eventually affect large numbers of people as well as chemicals that are an instant and bleeding obvious hazard. It's an area where personal experience counts for little – you have to look at the statistics., and even they can be misleading.

Blaming Brussels is misunderstanding what's going on.  If it was EU madness, then the rest of the developed world wouldn't also be introducing similar restrictions.  Sadly we can't go back to the carefree days when a bit of pollution didn't matter.

Dave

 

 

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 09/11/2018 12:19:02

[John ReeseParticipant @johnreese12848]

Here in the US lead bearing solder and leaded brass fittings are banned on potable water systems, and rightly so. We are not prohibited from using lead and leaded solder for other purposes. Our free machining steels contain lead.

We do have a few nutcase bureaucrats making idiotic rules. In California coffee must be labelled as possibly carcinogenic.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Adam Stevenson on 09/11/2018 10:47:26:

Wait till they find out how bad dihydrogen monoxide is, every one that comes into contact with it will die at some,point. Too little or too much you die.

Dangerous stuff. Remember the Titanic? The sooner it's removed from our oceans the safer they will be.

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

Lead leaching back into the ground, where did lead come from in the first place ?

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by Speedy Builder5 on 11/11/2018 07:26:15:

Lead leaching back into the ground, where did lead come from in the first place ?

Would we be here if it wasn't present? Interesting article:

**LINK**

Russell

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Russell Eberhardt on 11/11/2018 09:57:06:

[ … ]

Would we be here if it wasn't present? Interesting article:

**LINK**

.

Very interesting, Russell … thanks.

This line got me thinking [concurrently] about cholesterol problems and plastic water pipes:

[quote] Diets containing about 850 ppm of lead produced normal results. They found that piglets fed on a similar lead deficient diet even when allowed to feed ad libitum suffered from a 16% reduction in growth rate and there were abnormalities in the metabolisms of cholesterol, phospholipids, bile acids and also of sodium, potassium, zinc, copper and manganese. [/quote]

… Which is probably not something I have done before.

MichaelG.

[VicParticipant @vic]

I read just recently that modern camera lenses are no longer made with leaded glass and are the worse for it according to some.

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by Vic on 11/11/2018 11:12:47:

I read just recently that modern camera lenses are no longer made with leaded glass and are the worse for it according to some.

 

There is an exemption to the EU Directive on lead relating to optical glass which reads, "lead in white glasses used for optical applications," (13(a) in EU 2017/1011 of July 2017).

Russell

Edited By Russell Eberhardt on 11/11/2018 11:36:41

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

I thought studies relating to lead and violence interesting. Here's a link:

**LINK**

Certainly, all the lead from leaded petrol/gasoline had to go somewhere, as does all the bits of "rubber" from tyres, and bits of asphalt.

My granny used to say "everything in moderation"; certainly lead as an element has been with us for ever, but it's the balance that's maybe the issue.

Who knows? I certainly don't!

[Brian OldfordParticipant @brianoldford70365]

Posted by Vic on 11/11/2018 11:12:47:

I read just recently that modern camera lenses are no longer made with leaded glass and are the worse for it according to some.

Your not supposed to eat it.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I had this response from HSE. I have to say the distinction between solder and free cutting bars seems highly dubious:

Dear Neil,

There are restrictions on the placing on the market of metallic lead (as a substance), of mixtures containing lead (e.g., alloys) and to articles containing lead.

Restriction 30 in Annex XVII of REACH prohibits the supply to the general public of substances that could cause reproductive harm. This also applies to any mixtures containing these substances when they are present at or above certain concentration limits. For metallic lead a harmonised classification was agreed and published in 2016 [Regulation (EU) 2016/1179] and this came into effect on the 1st March 2018. This classification included reproductive harm. As a consequence, the sale to the general public of metallic lead (as a substance) or mixtures containing lead is prohibited. The concentration at which this kicks in depends on the form of the substance/mixture: for powders with a size of < 1mm the limit is 0.03%, for particles or other larger forms where the size is >= 1mm the limit is 0.3%. Such products can still be supplied to professional users, however, they are required to be marked visibly, legibly and indelibly with ‘Restricted to professional users.’

Restriction 63 applies to articles containing lead. Part of this restriction applies to items of jewellery and part applies more generally to items that could be placed into the mouth by children. There are certain exemptions and derogations for both parts. Examples of items covered by this restriction are given in the associated guidance at **LINK**.

For solder wire one can try to make an argument that the wire is what REACH calls an ‘article’ (in which case Restriction 30 would not apply , but Restriction 63 potentially would). An article is an object that during its production has been given a specific shape surface or design that is more important to its use than its chemical composition is. Examples of a metal article are a spoon, a pipe, a cable/rope, etc. In our view, the shape of solder wire is entirely irrelevant to its function. Solder wire is deliberately melted during its use and the form of a wire is purely for convenience. As such, soldering alloys containing lead are mixtures and Restriction 30 applies. The same would apply to casting alloys containing lead (at > 0.3%).

Where metals or alloys are supplied in the form of sheets, bars, rods, etc, then it may be possible to argue that they are articles. The ECHA guidance on substances in articles contains a flow diagram that considers the boundary between metals and alloys being substances/mixtures (see Appendix 4 and pages 78-82). Items such as lead sheets or lead bearing phosphor bronzes and steels may be being supplied in the form of articles. Whilst these may subsequently be cut or deformed to some degree, the basic shape is usually retained or remains important. Depending on the subsequent use Restriction 63 may apply to the items being produced. If the suppliers decides that the items are articles, then Restriction 30 wouldn’t apply.

Kind regards

REACH & CLP Helpdesk

Chemicals Regulation Division

HSE, Redgrave Court, Bootle, Merseyside L20 7HS

[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

Absolute! Bloody! Insanity. Sophistry also. EN1A (leaded) contains between 0.15% and 0.35% lead and the swarf definitely won't be an 'article'…

Edited By Mark Rand on 13/11/2018 19:48:39

[RobinParticipant @robin]

Here's a piece of lead/pewter, an apostle cap, a dinky spout for pouring gunpowder into your matchlock musq't.

It must have been lost c1640 then waited for a metal detectorist to visit the battlefield, recover it and sell it on eBay.

The lead has hardly degraded, even the little loops for the strings are stil there. I don't think lead in landfill is half the problem it is made out to be.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

This was on the BBC news-feed this morning: **LINK**

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/stories-46196469/fighting-the-international-fly-tippers

MichaelG.

[Swarf, Mostly!Participant @swarfmostly]

Hi there, all,

I've recently replaced three electrolytic capacitors on one of the printed boards in my computer monitor. (It didn't cure the fault so trouble-shooting continues! )

The boards were manufactured using lead-free solder. In order to free the joints to enable the old capacitors to be removed, I first had to flood them with 60/40 solder. I know I wouldn't have had anything like the same struggle if the boards had been assembled using 60/40.

As a microscopist of my acquaintance says 'if lead-free solder were any good, the Romans would have used it!'!

My reel of fine-gauge 60/40 Ersin Multicore is down to the last layer on the spool. I have several wooden reels of 60/40 Ersin Multicore in stock which would 'see me out' except that it is of the gauge we used to use to solder the tags on Octal valve-holders!!!!!

Best regards,

Swarf, Mostly!

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