Lathe shocks

[Nitai LeviParticipant @nitailevi73768]

Posted by Russell Eberhardt on 02/08/2015 17:14:26:

No. The hole is to take the male earth pin on eg., French power outlets. That plug combines the two earthing methods of the E and F versions of the CEE plug.

Are type E and type H essentially the same except the earth pin is on the socket and plug respectively?

Instead of replacing the plug or using an adapter, for now I put a pin the same diameter and length to connect the earth hole in the plug with the hole in the socket (there wasn't one in the box but I made one). Is that not a good idea? If not, why?

[john carruthersParticipant @johncarruthers46255]

You need as good continuity as you can get for earths. If you aren't sure, rig an earth spike into the ground and run a separate cable. You want as low ohms as you can get. There is no one standard, some say 60, some 25, I have 8 on a damp day.

[Keith LongParticipant @keithlong89920]

Nitai

With your last question it's pretty obvious that you are not familiar with wiring plugs etc. Get someone who knows what they are doing to change the plug for you – it's about a 15 minute job start to finish. 240 volts has a nasty habit of KILLING YOU if you get it wrong. Stop messing about and get the job done properly!

[Raymond AndersonParticipant @raymondanderson34407]

I agree with Keith, Instead of just buying a new plug of the correct type, this has turned into a saga

Just get the correct plug, get it wired correctly, and then you will be able to enjoy your lathe safely [at least from the electrical side of things]

[Nitai LeviParticipant @nitailevi73768]

Thanks.

It turns out that my dad is very faimilar with these things because his father was an electrical engineer. I did get a new plug and my dad can do this, but he actually suggested just putting a pin there.

Both methods simply connect the earth wire to the earth hole in the wall, unless something inside the European plug causes it to be different?

[Keith LongParticipant @keithlong89920]

Nitai

Your last sentence is the crux of the matter – the plug is moulded on and no-one apart from the Chinese company that moulded it knows what is inside. The other side of the argument is that if you modify an electrical connection – not to be confused with changing the plug and fitting a proper new plug – then if anything goes wrong and you or the equipment gets damaged then you're on your own – the supplier has a perfect get-out clause for any liability.

Play safe make, use of your dad and get him to show you how to change the plugs – a very useful skill in life – believe me!

[dcostaParticipant @dcosta]

Hello Nitai,

Look ***HERE***, please. Maybe a traveler adaptor like this prevents scrificing the plug…

Dias Costa

[Neil LickfoldParticipant @neillickfold44316]

Is there a bulging cap in the picture on page 1 ?. If so, I recommend you get it looked at as well.

Neil

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Posted by dcosta on 02/08/2015 19:20:46:

Hello Nitai,

Look ***HERE***, please. Maybe a traveler adaptor like this prevents scrificing the plug…

<img alt="WA-14 Travel Plug Adapter for Israel, Palestine (" type="" h"="" si="" 32,="" round="" pins)"="" height="200" data-cke-saved-src="http://www.adaptelec.com/images/medium/wa-14_MED.jpg&quot; src="http://www.adaptelec.com/images/medium/wa-14_MED.jpg&quot; title=" WA-14 Travel Plug Adapter for Israel, Palestine (" pins)="" "="" width="320">

Dias Costa

No. Not that type. The one he would need has a depression in it so that the earth contact on the plug can make contact. I have one for a UK 3 pin socket. It was provided with a microscope that came with a european plug. His lathe supplier aught to stock them if they are going to sell them with that sort of plug on them. He would probably find they are breaking some regulations by not taking care of the problem.

John

–

Edited By John W1 on 02/08/2015 20:06:30

[Nitai LeviParticipant @nitailevi73768]

Posted by Neil Lickfold on 02/08/2015 19:59:13:

Is there a bulging cap in the picture on page 1 ?. If so, I recommend you get it looked at as well.

What is a bulging cap? Which of the two photos are you refrring to? Sorry it's not my first language so not sure.

[Nitai LeviParticipant @nitailevi73768]

Posted by John W1 on 02/08/2015 20:04:29:

No. Not that type… His lathe supplier aught to stock them if they are going to sell them with that sort of plug on them. He would probably find they are breaking some regulations by not taking care of the problem.

You are probably right… and yes, that adapter doesn't connect the earth.

[Nitai LeviParticipant @nitailevi73768]

Posted by Keith Long on 02/08/2015 18:53:41:

Play safe make, use of your dad and get him to show you how to change the plugs – a very useful skill in life – believe me!

OK, my dad came over and looked at it. He suggested to use a pin instead of changing the plug itself. Since this type of European plug works the way it should with the (mostly) French socket with one earth pin getting into the plug earth hole, it should be exactly the same. This uses the better and more reliable molded plug as opposed to a new plug (eventhough this plug won't be moving).

So I did what he suggested. The lathe works fine and so far no shocks but will continue to notice.
He also showed me how to change the plug, which is the same as what I've done many times except the colours and locations are slightly different on a mains plug with earth.

Thanks again

[Ian HewsonParticipant @ianhewson99641]

Good to know you are still alive, but you still have the earth leakage fault that needs to be addressed.

Check that the earth loop is ok and your machine has a proper earth, do not rely on bodges where your life could be at risk.

A competant electrician will have the instruments to check this for you.

[Chris Jones 3Participant @chrisjones3]

Can I add my experience of those European plugs. I bought a small inverter welder a couple of years ago and started getting shocks off the case. The euro plug was fitted into one of those enclosing adapters to convert it to a UK 3 pin plug, the problem was the groove that had the earth strip in the bottom of a deep groove had some plastic flashing left in it that prevented the spring earth contact from touching it. I would say the design of these adapters is a bit 'iffy' to say the least. It would be wise to check the earthing of any device that uses this arrangement. If in any doubt change the plug and make sure you have a proper earth connection. Luckily I was only getting around 90-120V from the suppression capacitors but an earth fault on the device could have been lethal.

Stay safe – Chris.

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

I have the same experience the other way round. Living in France I have tried adaptors for 13 A UK plugs and many of them have no proper earth connection to the French outlet. I now only use adaptors where I can't avoid it, such as plug mounted power supplies.

As for using the loose pin Nitai, I wouldn't advise it.  You have two points of connection in place of one and thus a greater chance of a failure.  Additionally someone might unplug the lathe and plug it back in and not notice that the earth pin has dropped out.  Do it properly and change the plug!

Russell.

Edited By Russell Eberhardt on 03/08/2015 09:11:22

[Neil LickfoldParticipant @neillickfold44316]

In the 1st picture near the bottom rh side of the picture, there are shown 2 black cylinder cans. They look like capacitors, and the LH one closest to the heat sink or what ever it is,. The LH capacitor looks to having a bulging top compared to the RH one. They should be flat on their tops. Sometimes when they bulge on the top, they also leek fluid out that can effect other components on the circuit. It may not be the cause of your shocks, but if the capacitor is bulging it should be replaced.

Neil

[John McNamaraParticipant @johnmcnamara74883]

Hi

There is only one possible way to render the machine safe. It needs the correct plug to be properly fitted. a Plug the complies with the local regulations that are no doubt in place. The use of an adaptor is dangerous as it allows the same machine to be used without an adaptor as well.

What would happen if in the unlikely (SIC), event of another person using the machine, what if that person plugged the machine into another power point without the adaptor and was electrocuted.

Apart from the human tragedy that this could cause, knowingly leaving a machine in an unsafe condition would place the owner in a very difficult position, the state may have a more definite view on the consequences.

Regards
John

[Frank.N StormParticipant @frank-nstorm18349]

Can someone from England help me with a linguistic problem. How do you call something which brings you to tear out the rest of your meagre hairs? In my language I know something which I could loosely translate as "I could p*ss hair oil!" Would be nice if I could learn some original sentences in English.

Now back to the problem which results in the above. I cannot understand why someone can be so stubborn and flatly refuses to grab a side cutter and remove that unusable plug. Then scratch away the insulation and mount the correct plug, that needs only a screwdriver.

Just a couple of weeks ago I bought a German appliance and had to do just that. And I cannot tell how many times I did that in my life… Well I admit I own a multimeter and am able to check which wire has to go into which hole.

/rant, and regards

Frank

[Enough!Participant @enough]

Posted by Frank.N Storm on 03/08/2015 23:02:00:

Now back to the problem which results in the above. I cannot understand why someone can be so stubborn and flatly refuses to grab a side cutter and remove that unusable plug.

 

It's a not uncommon attitude among some here who it seems will go to any lengths to make-do or re-use instead of taking the simple, obvious, straightforward (and in this case, I guess you could add "infinitely less dangerous"  ) approach.

You just have to look at one of the several threads that have occurred over the years involving substitutes for a surface plate – when new, small plates suitable for home workshop use are available quite inexpensively and even with their limited, Far-East spec. would way out-perform most of the suggested alternatives.

Edited By Bandersnatch on 04/08/2015 01:27:53

[Nitai LeviParticipant @nitailevi73768]

Although many here do this, it is actually illegal here to do any electrical job to do with mains if you don't have an electrician certificate.

As far as being less dangerous, I had three (if I remember) highliy recommended electrcians do jobs for me in the past similar to this… and all of them failed! Either soldering failed or a screw dug into a soldered wire gripped with an "ender" (that's how we call it here, not sure how it's called in English), so it got loose inside a plug. I had to redo them myself to be reliable, but they didn't have anything to do with mains. If one of those times was the lathe plug then it would be infinitely more dangerous…

I would still consider it and probably ask an electrician to come and check everything anyway.

BTW the lathe won't be used by anyone else or moved to be used elsewhere.

Edited By Nitai Levi on 04/08/2015 05:33:30

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

Nital, has anybody been prosecuted for fitting a plug in your country ? BobH

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Nitai,

For reasons already mentioned by yourself and others

1. I would NOT use an "adapter"
2. Yes it is probably a good idea to keep the moulded-on plug.
3. I would NOT faff-about with a loose "earth pin"

I think that leaves one obvious option, as yet unmentioned;

• a good quality plug to fit your socket
• a good quality socket to fit the lathe plug
• connected with a length of suitable wiring

If you are not happy making this adapter lead yourself, then surely you could find a qualified contractor to make it. … Given that it would involve no modification to the domestic wiring, or the lathe, and could be made off-site … it should be reasonably priced.

MichaelG.

.

P.S. … For convenient reference here are the pictures that Martin Perman linked on the first page of this thread.

Quote: [with my emphasis added]

Type H : "socket compatible with plug types C & H (unsafe compatibility with E & F)"

.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 04/08/2015 08:53:18

[John McNamaraParticipant @johnmcnamara74883]

Hi Nitai

To be safe the socket must follow the local regulations, do not try to match the socket. match the plug to the local approved code socket.

Oh and make sure you have an earth and that the neutral wire is connected to the correct side of the plug.

I have no Idea of the way plugs are wired in your area. The following link will give you some idea of the various ways a plug and socket may be wired. and the pitfalls.

This link is not intended to show you how to do a particular job.

**LINK**

You must know the local electric wiring code or get help from a professional.

Regards
John

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

> Would be nice if I could learn some original sentences in English.

Perhaps this 'can of worms' belongs on a separate (heavily censored) Workshop Esperanto thread?

> Although many here do this, it is actually illegal here to do any electrical job to do with mains if you don't have an electrician certificate.

In the UK (often portrayed as the ultimate nanny state) they teach schoolchildren how to change plugs. People will do it – better they know how to do it properly. They are even relaxing the accursed 'Part P' to allow more domestic jobs to be carried out by homeowners.

If fitting a wire into a screwed or crimped fitting it should NOT be soldered. The solder makes it more likely to fracture and prevents the 'cold welding' that improves security and electrical contact.

Neil

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Nitai Levi on 02/08/2015 07:31:07:

.

You can see the plug itself only has two prongs… but isn't it supposed to be this way?
The wall socket is just above a table reinforcing bar, so if the plug had three prongs it actually wouldn't fit now. I have to connect it upside down. Should I change to a three prong plug and somehow manage to fit it?

.

.

Gentlemen

I am quoting this early post from Nitai, because it raises another interesting point:

[Ignoring for the moment the fact that the lathe is not being earthed] … By using the plug upside down, he has effectively swapped Live and Neutral connections. This may be causing unexpected behaviour in the lathe electronics. … I know little about these effects [except that I have heard them on audio equipment] and would appreciate comment from our electronics experts.

MichaelG.

[Author]

Posts