Interesting old chisels

[Chris GillParticipant @chrisgill22114]

I decided it might be a good idea to dig a large hole in a tree stump and plant something in it to hide the stump (a lime tree that was becoming dangerous). After chain drilling lots of holes with a spade drill I went in search of some beefy chisels and picked out a large gouge and a big locksmith's chisel (both over 100 years old and once the property of a great-great-uncle, I think).

The gouge had a couple of surprises in store (no, I still have all my fingers). On one side it has the maker's name – "H Wilson, Cast Steel" but on the other side it has a little picture of a boat with a coxswain and two rowers. Underneath it says "Oxford wins". Was that a common thing to do?

The second surprise was that it reacted with the tree sap and the sap on the blade turned blue (similar to Prussian blue). I know sap usually has a low pH but I'm puzzled by the colour. Any chemists out there got any ideas?

[Chris GillParticipant @chrisgill22114]

A tool with a story to tell

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

This link
https://www.ebay.ie/itm/194068283963?hash=item2d2f5f023b:g:91MAAOSwqmJfl1xq

Is to another chisel marked 'oxford wins' on ebay ireland

edit: was this a freshly felled tree or a rotting stump? Perhaps the colour is rom putrefying prodcuts rather than sap? We know that tree ash is rich in Potassium (soap/gunpowder) so perhaps some nitrogen rich bacteria and weather created Potassium Nitrate???

pgk

Edited By pgk pgk on 01/05/2021 20:27:34

[Chris GillParticipant @chrisgill22114]

Hi pgk

It was felled last year and will take some time to rot – still trying to grow. I'd forgotten about the potassium so I guess it could have created something akin to Prussian blue (pot ferricyanide)

Chris

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Your locksmiths chisel is an old fashioned mortise chisel – same use

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

OKFORD WINE (Not Oxford wins) – Should have gone to Specsavers!!!

[Chris GillParticipant @chrisgill22114]

Oxford wine?? Even after polishing it up a bit I couldn't be sure. But what does Oxford Wine refer to – a search only takes me to a wine merchant in Oxford. Mine doesn't say where it was made but the one PGK pointed to on eBay was made in Sheffield. I may be more puzzled than ever

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

From its age, I doubt that computer entries existed when the chisel was made. Chris, have a really good look at the engraving. From your photo, it says OC K FORD.

[Chris GillParticipant @chrisgill22114]

Hmm, and I do go to Specsavers I'm sure I can find a good excuse if I think hard enough.

But who, what or where was Okford and what do the rowers have to do with chisels?

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

As Dave Halford says the bottom one is a old style locksmiths mortice chisel known as a pig sticker.

regards Martin

[Robin GrahamParticipant @robingraham42208]

Chris, I doubt that you have created anything like Prussian Blue by sticking a chisel in a lump of lime wood. I think it's more likely that what you are seeing is the result of the reaction of iron with tannins in the wood – the complexes which form can be anywhere from blue to black.

For example, here is a pic of rust treated with 'tannic acid' –

Robin (who was once a chemist).

[Chris GillParticipant @chrisgill22114]

Thanks Robin

A-level chemistry was as far as I went so I was only guessing

[peak4Participant @peak4]

And another Oxford Wins here on Worthpoint

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/vintage-chisel-shipwright-australia-1414800637

I can't find anything about "T.CHAPMAN" & "SONS" with a cursory Google search

Bill

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

An interesting article on Lime Trees Here

https://www.permaculture.co.uk/multiple-uses-of-lime-trees-tilia

Particularly the comment about how indestructible they may be and the flavour of ground young under-ripe fruit and flowers. I was aware of lime flower tea, popular in parts of europe. I have lime trees on my property so may have a play this year.

The coxed pair rowers are intriguing but a few searches haven't thrown up anything meaningful. Perhaps something akin to the watermen's Doggets coat and badge history (that is an annual apprentice race on the Thames – worth loking up) but how that would relate to steel working eludes me.

pgk

[DiogenesIIParticipant @diogenesii]

Cambridge won 13 races on the trot 1924 to 1936..?

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by DiogenesII on 02/05/2021 09:04:32:

Cambridge won 13 races on the trot 1924 to 1936..?

Quite apart from that being an 8-oared race we've established that the wording is okford with a K.

[JourneymanParticipant @journeyman]

I think I will go with the 'OXFORD WINS' version… Still no wiser as to why that might appear on the chisel though! (or possibly 'OXFORD WIN5' )

Sharpened a bit with GIMP.

John

Edited By Journeyman on 02/05/2021 10:03:29

[DalboyParticipant @dalboy]

Having carved wood and especially Lime I have never had the tools discolour afterwards, but the they are modern chisels. The one you have maybe a carbon steel which could be effected by even small amounts of tannin in woods.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

See image 1 : **LINK**

https://picclick.com/Antique-Vintage-Coffin-Wood-Plane-Samuel-Hearnshaw-Sheffield-153428039503.html#&gid=1&pid=1

MichaelG.

.

3 references on this page https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/410125041/

… but I can’t be bothered signing-up for a free trial.

.

… and thus, to here: https://hearnshaw.one-name.net/Samuel.html

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 02/05/2021 10:25:41

 

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 02/05/2021 10:36:59

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Excellent find MichaelG
So Oxford Rd after falling out with his brother explains that part of the legend. The boat remans a mystery.. anyhting from depicting him chivvying on two workers to a nostalgic time racing with his brother.
It does date the tool as between 1877 when he went solo to the 1881 bankruptcy…??

pgk

[peak4Participant @peak4]

I've still not come up with anything about "T.CHAPMAN" & "SONS" that I mentioned earlier.
However on the Hearnshaw name, I stared to look last night, but it was getting late; Like Michael, I'd also spotted a few tools via Google image search.

It's often worth having a look at the various on-line stuff in the Ken Hawley collection; he was a tool dealer and collector of repute in Sheffield before his retirement.
http://www.hawleytoolcollection.com/index.php?sheffield-tool=the-collection

Part of the collection is Name on a Knife Blade
https://www.hawleysheffieldknives.com/index.php?val=h&kel=1490
where it's interesting to look at both Hearnshaw and Rogers Brothers (Note there are several different entries for various Rogers).
https://www.hawleysheffieldknives.com/n-fulldetails.php?val=r&kel=1064

See also a fairly eclectic site on Billhooks https://www.billhooks.co.uk
I only mention this, as somewhere on their site, and I know not where, there is a direct download link to a pdf of Sheffield edge tool manufacturers
For the nervous amongst you this is a direct link, and doesn't open in a web page.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiD7cyygavwAhXnQEEAHRKcAEUQFjAEegQIBhAD&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.billhooks.co.uk%2Fapp%2Fdownload%2F5783009499%2FSheffield%2BEdge%2BTool%2Bmakers.pdf&usg=AOvVaw33OJ3xqOJRFoz0bXRVKJG4

From that document P16;
Hearnshaw, George (Edge Tool Manufacturer). Residing at 45 Nottingham Street, in 1871. Recorded in: Whites Shefffield & District Directory – 1871.
Hearnshaw Bros. (Manuftrs. Of light & heavy edge tools, etc.). Residing at 50-52 Sorby Street, Sheffield in 1905. Recorded in: Whites Directory of Sheffield & Rotherham.

I've never been able to find an on-line copy of Whites, though there were other subsequent directories as well, some of which are listed here, but again without on-line access.
http://www.sheffieldindexers.com/DirectoriesIndex.html

Here we have another plane with the Three men In a Boat logo, rather than the more familiar John Bull one, which they seem to have acquired in 1889
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/beech-steel-badger-plane-samuel-162019485

Note that the court case was against different Hearnshaw Brothers, Frank and William, as mentioned in the earlier Rogers Brothers reference.

Lots more to be found I'm sure;

Bill

Edited By peak4 on 02/05/2021 14:07:59

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

I like the Oxford Works connection from 1877 but the logo and slogan are associated with 3 different makers, Hearnshaw, Wilson and Chapman.

All announcing they are made of cast steel, so it may be a quality-mark associated with the metal, not the tool. I wonder if it refers to Benjamin Huntley's process for making good steel cheaply, or to the later mid-Victorian process for forming large blocks of consistent composition free of blow-holes and other defects.

Could be a reference to a long forgotten event. There's a joke where the punchline is "I'm shy hairy melon, I'm shy", which only makes sense if you remember the song "I'm shy Mary Ellen I'm shy", which I've not heard for 50 years. Is it a coincidence the Boat Race in 1877 was a controversial draw? 'Oxford firmly believed that they had won the race by feet, but following a subsequent meeting in a law court with representatives of both universities and the umpire Chitty, the official result was declared as "Dead Heat", although contemporary accounts claim Phelps himself called it a "dead-heat to Oxford by 5 feet".'

May be saying that although the chisels look the same as the competition, they are actually better, a joke fully understood by Victorians but not us.

Dave

[Rod RenshawParticipant @rodrenshaw28584]

intersting thread.

There is a mention that the stump is still trying to grow. I have had some sucess from banging copper nails ( as used by boatbuliders) in tree stumps to stop further growth. I think the heavy metal poisons the remaining wood but I am not clear if it speeds up or hinders the rotting process.

Rod

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Yet another 'maker' mentioned in this 1882 incident:

The following is a description of the burglar’s implements left behind by the assassin of the policeman Cole:- One 1-inch and a quarter bench chisel; maker’s name “Ellis, late Berry, Old-street, warranted,” On the reverse side a boat, “Oxford wins,” cast steel.

Now I'm thinking "Oxford Wins" Cast Steel blades were made wholesale with no makers name so they could be stamped up as theirs by any tool factor, not unlike the way Chinese Lathes are sold around the world with different paint jobs. My theory, the firms Ellis, Hearnshaw, Wilson and Chapman weren't manufacturers, they were retailers.

Dave

[Grindstone CowboyParticipant @grindstonecowboy]

To speed up the rotting of the stump (unless you are keeping it as a flowerbed), bore plenty of holes in it of a decent size – 1 inch or larger – and fill them with a strong saltpetre solution.

No saltpetre? Pop round to your local bishop with a bucket

Rob

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