Insert facemilsl, correct use on hardened Steel.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

I recently took delivery of some milling cutters that had been stuck in a closed Argos store for over a month. One such item is a used 6 insert 50mm facemill. I used it last night. Not sure if I was using it correctly. I think it originally came from Arc euro tools. I fitted new inserts & checked each insert was touching off & they were. I ran the machine at 1000 rpm at 1st. Then slowed to 800. The material I have mentioned in previous post & is steel. I have no idea of what steel it is other than it is blooming hard. They are Chinese quick change toolholders that I need to take 4mm from the lower face. I have done 4 others in the lathe with a 4 jaw chuck & that was hard going. I tried with a HSS flycutter & it just took the edge off pretty quick.

So now I have the mill I did some work on one. It did cut the material , I took 0.1mm depth per pass. ??? I took a total of 1mm before retiring. The main question is & the inserts were carbide. Is it ok for sparks to come from the cutter. It looked pretty but not sure if this is ok or not. After use I removed & inspected the inserts, which were all perfect. No burrs or chips on any of the 6. The finish was like a mirror. Nearly but very good. I tried it dry & with cutting oil. Either way it was the same. Bonfire night. 

Any input please. Do I need to run faster deeper , ???. I did get 2- 63mm mills too, which looking up are pretty expensive items. One is a 6 cutter one which I believe is marketed by Sandvic. The inserts alone cost an arm. But some members have already said my machine may not be able to handle them. From using the 50mm one I think they may be right.

Steve.

Edited By Steviegtr on 08/05/2020 01:19:34

[Thor 🇳🇴Participant @thor]

Hi Steve,

There is a nice cutting speed calculator on the LMS site that may give you some idea of the speeds for various materials. In my experience carbide works best at high speeds, 0.1mm depth of cut sounds too small to me, but you need a rigid setup.

Thor

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

It did not come from ARC as they don't do that size in 6 insert and don't do any that take teh size 11 inserts

What inserts are you using, they come if different grades some more suitable for hardener steels as your holders are hardened. Once you know what inserts you have go look up the recommended speeds on the makers website so you at least have that part right. You are unlikely to match their feeds and DOC but 0.1mm is just rubbing the insert.

Hardend steel with a 50mm cutter you are probably looking at 80-100m/min speed = 1600-2000rpm with the correct inserts but doubt the machine will handle a feed of 450mm/min. But really comes down to how hard the holders really are and will they or the machine win.

 

Edited By JasonB on 08/05/2020 08:19:52

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

I fitted new inserts & checked each insert was touching off & they were.

Unfortunately, if you only checked in one axis (the z?) that is not the only one that requires checking.

No, it is not “OK” for lots of sparking to occur.

Little point in having six inserts, if only one is doing any work.🙂

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by not done it yet on 08/05/2020 07:51:29:

Little point in having six inserts, if only one is doing any work.🙂

In this case it may have been an advantage as Stevie will only have blunted one out of the six inserts

[Anonymous]

A facemill is the wrong tool for machining hardened steel. The inserts are not designed for it. I machine HSS toolbits with standard carbide endmills. The swarf should be coming off red hot. Hardened steel can be turned with ordinary CCMT inserts, but they don't like it. Much better to use CBN inserts.

Andrew

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

Now i remember why i ground one I modified. It wasn't a great finish but it was a non working surface.

Martin C

[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

I must be getting old and out of date as I would not dream of machining hardened steel with any type of cutter,thats why there are surface grinders to do that work,if the hardened toolholder is case hardened then grind through the case hardening with an angle grinder and then finish off with a milling cutter.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

This is the chart I have been using for the face mill inserts, they do give speeds for hardened steels but as I said it needs a specific insert grade. Several of the other makers don't give cutting data for hardened steels for these style of inserts but do as Andrew says for traditional milling cutters

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by JasonB on 08/05/2020 08:14:12:

Posted by not done it yet on 08/05/2020 07:51:29:

 

Little point in having six inserts, if only one is doing any work.🙂

In this case it may have been an advantage as Stevie will only have blunted one out of the six inserts

 

No I have not blunted any of the inserts. I made sure each one scratched the surface. Also watching one of your video's as the cutter works it's way across the work it re-marks the surface the other way. Proving the tram is ok. ??

So from your remarks about origin. I went out into the sun to see if I could make out which inserts are in. I noticed some faint writing on the side of the cutter body. Mag glasses on. It says Iscar, HM90-FP0AP-10. HELI2000.

The inserts maybe wrong as you say. They only say M9. Dark in colour.???. However I do have quite a lot of ones that came with the other stuff I bought. Which maybe correct. HM90 APKT 1003 PDR. If that makes any sense to anyone. I think it maybe Steel & Stainless. See pictures.I also have some Kennametal ones which I cannot identify. The Iscar site shows the cutter but too many settings for my grey cells. I think reading between the lines it was saying 1200rpm & 0.8mm depth of cut. Does that sound right.

From memory of cutting down the holders when the lathe was used. The 1st 2mm of cut was terrible but once below that it was not as bad. So does that indicate they are case hardened. Also do I do as Andrew advises & have a go with the carbide cutters which I do have.

Steve.

Edited By Steviegtr on 08/05/2020 11:50:16

[Anonymous]

There's hardened steel and then there's hardened steel!

Most of my feed 'n' speed charts list hardened steel, by which they mean around 40-45Rc. I suspect this is roughly wwhere the tool holders will be. On the other hand there's fully hardened steel, in the range 60Rc to 70Rc. The silver steel test piece I turned was ~65Rc.

Andrew

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 08/05/2020 11:53:20:

There's hardened steel and then there's hardened steel!

Most of my feed 'n' speed charts list hardened steel, by which they mean around 40-45Rc. I suspect this is roughly wwhere the tool holders will be. On the other hand there's fully hardened steel, in the range 60Rc to 70Rc. The silver steel test piece I turned was ~65Rc.

Andrew

Andrew. When I 1st started doing these I gave one to a friend to do for me. He returned it saying it was too hard & did not want to wreck his cutters. That said, I did do some on the lathe with H.S.S which was all I had at the time. I had to keep sharpening the tip. The only way I can test is with a fine file. I can file them but not as easy as mild steel. ??

Steve.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Steviegtr on 08/05/2020 11:38:15:

Posted by JasonB on 08/05/2020 08:14:12:

Posted by not done it yet on 08/05/2020 07:51:29:

Little point in having six inserts, if only one is doing any work.🙂

In this case it may have been an advantage as Stevie will only have blunted one out of the six inserts

No I have not blunted any of the inserts. I made sure each one scratched the surface. Also watching one of your video's as the cutter works it's way across the work it re-marks the surface the other way. Proving the tram is ok. ??

So from your remarks about origin. I went out into the sun to see if I could make out which inserts are in. I noticed some faint writing on the side of the cutter body. Mag glasses on. It says Iscar, HM90-FP0AP-10. HELI2000.

…

I think reading between the lines it was saying 1200rpm & 0.8mm depth of cut. Does that sound right.

Steve.

…

Nice cutter, but the spec shows it's good for up to 25,198 rpm and 10mm depth of cut (with internal coolant). It's a metal muncher designed for a heavy fast rigid machine with tens of horsepower behind it. Tom Senior never designed a mill for a cutter like that beast. Probably still useful though.

As it won't be possible to drive the cutter as the manufacturer intended, experiment for best results. Which combinations of material, rpm, doc and feed-rate work with a 1/2HP motor and a decently rigid small machine? I doubt anyone knows – it's a suck it and see job.

Dave

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 08/05/2020 12:18:46:

Posted by Steviegtr on 08/05/2020 11:38:15:

Posted by JasonB on 08/05/2020 08:14:12:

Posted by not done it yet on 08/05/2020 07:51:29:

Little point in having six inserts, if only one is doing any work.🙂

In this case it may have been an advantage as Stevie will only have blunted one out of the six inserts

No I have not blunted any of the inserts. I made sure each one scratched the surface. Also watching one of your video's as the cutter works it's way across the work it re-marks the surface the other way. Proving the tram is ok. ??

So from your remarks about origin. I went out into the sun to see if I could make out which inserts are in. I noticed some faint writing on the side of the cutter body. Mag glasses on. It says Iscar, HM90-FP0AP-10. HELI2000.

…

I think reading between the lines it was saying 1200rpm & 0.8mm depth of cut. Does that sound right.

Steve.

…

Nice cutter, but the spec shows it's good for up to 25,198 rpm and 10mm depth of cut (with internal coolant). It's a metal muncher designed for a heavy fast rigid machine with tens of horsepower behind it. Tom Senior never designed a mill for a cutter like that beast. Probably still useful though.

As it won't be possible to drive the cutter as the manufacturer intended, experiment for best results. Which combinations of material, rpm, doc and feed-rate work with a 1/2HP motor and a decently rigid small machine? I doubt anyone knows – it's a suck it and see job.

Dave

Thanks for that Dave. Yes best just to try various speeds & cuts. One thing I have taken from this is the speed for carbide is best high. Might not reach the 28,000 though. I will change the inserts for the Iscar ones as I think they are for steel & not sure about the ones in there at present other than it says M9. In JasonB's chart for a 50mm cutter, what is the Fz mm/t for. It says 0.05- 0.08

Steve.

[Anonymous]

Posted by Steviegtr on 08/05/2020 12:34:06:

…..what is the Fz mm/t for. It says 0.05- 0.08

Chip load; the amount, in millimetres, a tooth cuts per revolution. To get the feedrate multiply the chip load by the number of teeth, 6 in this case.

Andrew

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 08/05/2020 13:01:40:

Posted by Steviegtr on 08/05/2020 12:34:06:

…..what is the Fz mm/t for. It says 0.05- 0.08

Chip load; the amount, in millimetres, a tooth cuts per revolution. To get the feedrate multiply the chip load by the number of teeth, 6 in this case.

Andrew

Thanks for that. I thought it was depth of cut. I still have no idea of the answer to that. that. As SOD says suck it & see.

Steve.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by JasonB on 08/05/2020 08:14:12:

Posted by not done it yet on 08/05/2020 07:51:29:

Little point in having six inserts, if only one is doing any work.🙂

In this case it may have been an advantage as Stevie will only have blunted one out of the six inserts

Agreed. I think that was the one important measurement that doubleboost avoided measuring, with his noisy chinese facemill? I have my suspicions why.🙂 You don’t show the down-sides of the kit if you want more freebies. Emma did – and hasn’t been ‘invited’ to review anything since reporting the truth about the angle plates she was supplied to review HERE

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 08/05/2020 11:53:20:

There's hardened steel and then there's hardened steel!

Yes as I said really depends on just how hard they are.

If any of those insert boxes have a grey colour band with H in in then they would be the best bet to try

May also be worth looking up the spec for your Swizz+tech cutters to see if they give a hardness on them, you can get cutters for hardnesses such as 45, 55 and 65Rc, the higher the number the more they are likely to do the job

NDIY, I did ask on DB's video if he checked the sideways runout as that is the direction the teeth actually cut in but did not get a reply. Bit like when he was clocking the runout of something and had the Dti half way round the side rather than over the highpoint so it did not show as much deflection.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Steve,

I am guessing that 6 insert head (not ARC) is from your eBay hoard on this thread:

**LINK**

That was possibly/probably a good buy.

I think on another thread someone suggested that you consider loading three of six pockets with the carbide inserts – balanced out, which may put less load on your machine.?

Ketan at ARC.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by Ketan Swali on 08/05/2020 14:43:12:

Steve,

I am guessing that 6 insert head (not ARC) is from your eBay hoard on this thread:

**LINK**

That was possibly/probably a good buy.

I think on another thread someone suggested that you consider loading three of six pockets with the carbide inserts – balanced out, which may put less load on your machine.?

Ketan at ARC.

Yes that is correct. it is a Iscar I believe they are made in Israel. Can I do that & use with just 3 inserts. ??

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Steviegtr on 08/05/2020 14:49:22:

Posted by Ketan Swali on 08/05/2020 14:43:12:

Steve,

I am guessing that 6 insert head (not ARC) is from your eBay hoard on this thread:

**LINK**

That was possibly/probably a good buy.

I think on another thread someone suggested that you consider loading three of six pockets with the carbide inserts – balanced out, which may put less load on your machine.?

Ketan at ARC.

Yes that is correct. it is a Iscar I believe they are made in Israel. Can I do that & use with just 3 inserts. ??

Iscar is a very good brand. If they fit correctly the face/shell mill pocket, use them. What have you got to loose? As long as the three are balanced – i.e. inserted into alternative pockets, and correct ones for steel.

Try to go at maximum speed, light DOC.. say 0.3 to 0.5mm, and 'feel the feed', to understand the limitations of your machine. As you get happy, consider deeper DOCs, but not too much as you are working with a big diameter face/shell mill. When using your face/shell mill, try to avoid using the full diameter for the cut, to avoid overloading your mill. I think this has been discussed elsewhere in more detail by Jason and/or Andrew.

Ketan at ARC.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by not done it yet on 08/05/2020 13:21:07:

Agreed. I think that was the one important measurement that doubleboost avoided measuring, with his noisy chinese facemill? I have my suspicions why.🙂 You don’t show the down-sides of the kit if you want more freebies. Emma did – and hasn’t been ‘invited’ to review anything since reporting the truth about the angle plates she was supplied to review HERE

Hi NDIY,

There is noting wrong with DB's freebees, as long as it is honest, and as long as the viewer of the YouTube sees and understands what is being demonstrated for the price. There is however a misinterpretation at times that U.K. based sellers of similar looking products are overcharging, and somehow if the viewer buys direct from/through Banggood/eBay, he/she will get a bargain. The viewer may or may not get a bargain, but there are many factors which the viewer fails to take into account, nor does he/she care about as long as the product work for them. Rejects/back door/black market money laundering/clearance deals/subsidised carriage/taxation/U.K.storage handling/labour/rates, are all issues that no one thinks about as long as they get a good deal.

This is not a rant. U.K. importers know what we are dealing with, and we have to just get on with it or leave the business. Lets face it… HMRC doesn't care, and their base in Scotland are happy to hand out VAT numbers to external companies based in China assisted by eBay. It is laughable because many of them don't even pay the correct VAT to HMRC, and when this is reported to HMRC no one really sees any action.

Coming back to DBs videos which are useful in content, he does have some supporters – one of whom is an ex-member of this forum, combined with his brother who is still a member of this forum – unfortunately, who play a tag team to slag-off U.K. importers.. like us, because they still have an axe to grind against the late John Stevenson, who was my friend and sub-contractor for ARC. I don't think that DB is aware of them 'as brother playing tag team', as they have different names. That aspect of the presentation I find disgraceful.

On the other hand, EMMA did a great review. Nothing wrong with the product for the price, and she was honest about her findings.

Ketan at ARC.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

OK guys. Back on track. Having spoken to a mate on this subject, who does a lot of machining of things like brake discs etc.. Something was explained to me that I tried out. he asked if I had a digital temp gauge, which I have.

He said do a cut across the face at around 0.25mm per pass. Do not go too fast. Shield yourself from the sparks. Carbide tooling on hard steel sparks like hell. Get your temp gauge ready & as soon as you stop take the temp of the part & the cutter inserts. Which I have done. To my surprise the part was cool & so was the cutter inserts. I did this through to 3mm of cut with no noticeable increase in temperature. The chips were around 5mm long & blue of course. I ran the spindle at 1250 rpm. 

I then removed the cutter & inspected each insert. There is no wear on any of them. He said mild steel should not spark but hardened steel does & this is quite normal. I of course have no idea but everything has turned out so far as SOD says suck it & see. Pretty pleased with the results so far. The finish is like chrome . Pictures & also one of my makeshift shield which worked just. I did not push the feed rate but the machine seemed to stay stable & no drop in rpm.

Steve.

Edited By Steviegtr on 08/05/2020 19:19:35

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Job's a good un, that's how Ketan likes to use them too!

[Author]

Posts