In flight social distancing

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 16/10/2020 16:41:57:

Just found this … New Improved, etc. **LINK**

http://www.filtrationcontrol.com/?gclid=CjwKCAjwiaX8BRBZEiwAQQxGxyzbNw_VWoyfP0rzRNyr-zpzlz17CsCtGnDSot3l1tXLN_T4MLVv8RoCsWoQAvD_BwE

This one claims 99.99% instead of the more usual 99.97% but I still don’t really understand what the number means

… by weight, by volume, by number … ?

Covid 19 virus is very small, so this point of clarification is important.

MichaelG.

It seems to me to say that their filter captures particulates that might be carrying pathogens/viruses.

The girl in their picture appears to have a few 'larger than virus size' gaps around her mask though.

Martin.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by blowlamp on 16/10/2020 17:37:37:

[…]

It seems to me to say that their filter captures particulates that might be carrying pathogens/viruses.

[…]

.

I agree, Martin

… and then eliminates 99.99% of what exactly ?

strangely, although there is an asterisk following 99.99% there is no explanatory footnote

MichaelG.

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[nigel jones 5Participant @nigeljones5]

the 99% claim relating to things like filters and detergents arrises from the fact that we dont yet have technology to substanciate a claim of 100%…..learned that on the BRC auditor course!

[ChrisBParticipant @chrisb35596]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 16/10/2020 21:08:50:

Posted by blowlamp on 16/10/2020 17:37:37:

[…]

It seems to me to say that their filter captures particulates that might be carrying pathogens/viruses.

[…]

.

I agree, Martin

… and then eliminates 99.99% of what exactly ?

strangely, although there is an asterisk following 99.99% there is no explanatory footnote

MichaelG.

.

Look at this link Michael, it will help you better understand the percentage figures manufacturers quote: LINK

The following is an OPERATORS INFORMATION TRANSMISSION from Airbus regarding ATA 21 – Virus Outbreaks – Novel Corona Virus (2019-nCov)

Quoting:

"Based on available information and Airbus’ understanding, Airbus do not expect that any special precautions or operational procedures are necessary, for example, to operate with the cabin air recirculation fans switched off, because:

1. The efficiency of HEPA filters is at least 99.97 per cent at 0.3 micron (Dop Test, MIL STD 282). The efficiency increases with bigger particles and also with smaller particles. This characteristic, whereby efficiency increases with smaller as well as bigger particles is achieved by the use of multiple capture mechanisms and the filters are similar to those used in hospital applications. Therefore the efficiency of the HEPA cabin air recirculation filters is greater than the above statement for particles within the size range encompassed by a typical virus (0.01 to 0.2 microns).

2. The airflow induced by the cabin recirculation fans is designed to assist in maintaining the correct cabin airflow pattern. The cabin conditioning air enters at the top of the cabin and leaves at floor level and is designed to prevent longitudinal airflow within the cabin. Importantly, the toilets and galley are areas where air is extracted and directed overboard without re-entering the cabin areas (it is not recirculated).

3. The recirculated air flow is a significant part of the total airflow which flows over the passengers and removes locally generated contaminants downward where it exits the passenger compartment at floor level local to the source of the contaminant. The cabin air exchange rate is approximately once every 3 minutes for outside air, but this figure improves to once every 2 minutes with the use of recirculated air."

Concluding, I would not be much concerned about the air inside the cabin. My concern would be that every one is wearing their masks properly and act in a way so as to protect oneself and the others. I definitely take all precautions and avoid touching surfaces as much as possible. Not eat anything onboard unless it's really necessary etc.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Thanks for the link, Chris … I will read it thoroughly, later

MichaelG.

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Edit: This might take a while !!

At first sight, I struggle to understaing the claims made in paragraph 1.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 17/10/2020 09:15:43

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Fellow seekers of knowledge might like to follow my example and

download a copy of MIL STD 282 **LINK**

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwii3t-on7vsAhVSr3EKHXu5BDMQFjACegQIBRAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Feveryspec.com%2FMIL-STD%2FMIL-STD-0100-0299%2Fdownload.php%3Fspec%3DMIL-STD-282_NOTICE_1-4.043988.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1pT3OBHeAlxrjvrk-JBrWb

I have no idea why Google doesn’t just provide a simple URL

MichaelG.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Whatever they may say re HEPA filters, the title of the thread is ‘social distancing’. HEPAs or not, it is not exactly ‘good protection’ from infection if you are sitting adjacent to a contagious sufferer (of this infection) for hours on end.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

If planes are safe then all the pubs and restaurants will be open for business

The reason the public is being restricted is to mitigate the increase from the recent opening of the schools and universities

They can only keep some stuff going and other stuff gets shut down

Heck it was only recently where the experts were babbling that schoolkids couldn't transmit it… then a month after education opens up we get graphs where our 10-19 year olds are the biggest covid group

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

My superfit bruvver got it last week and is isolating

He was rough for last week and getting better this week

It's a nasty version of the flu which is very easy to transmit

The last time he gave me a good flu dose at xmas 7 years ago it shut one of my lungs down, I remember sitting there in bed pondering on whether to call an ambulance

Decided not to bother because if my other lung had packed up I would be gone before it arrived

The next day things were fine, the worst was over

[ChrisBParticipant @chrisb35596]

Posted by not done it yet on 17/10/2020 10:43:18:

Whatever they may say re HEPA filters, the title of the thread is ‘social distancing’. HEPAs or not, it is not exactly ‘good protection’ from infection if you are sitting adjacent to a contagious sufferer (of this infection) for hours on end.

Agreed, I only wanted to point out that recirculated air on the aircraft is not the real problem. Social distancing is impractical on an aircraft, flights with 60% less passengers will never be feasible.

The only way air transport can contunue in a safe and economic manner is by taking precautions. All passengers should be tested prior departure, today there are quick 30 min tests available. Obligatory masks, no food served, no hand luggage, etc.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

I’ve not yet located the actual report, but this [from the Telegraph] is interesting:

[quote]

Japanese researchers have shown that masks can offer protection from airborne coronavirus particles, but even professional-grade coverings cannot eliminate contagion risk entirely.

Scientists at the University of Tokyo built a secure chamber with mannequin heads facing each other. One head, fitted with a nebuliser, simulated coughing and expelled actual coronavirus particles. The other mimicked natural breathing, with a collection chamber for viruses coming through the airway.

A cotton mask reduced viral uptake by the receiver head by up to 40 per cent compared to no mask. An N95 mask, used by medical professionals, blocked up to 90 per cent. However, even when the N95 was fitted to the face with tape, some virus particles still sneaked in.

When a mask was attached to the coughing head, cotton and surgical masks blocked more than 50 per cent of the virus transmission.

"There was a synergistic effect when both the virus receiver and virus spreader wore masks," the researchers wrote in a study published on Wednesday.

There has been a growing consensus among health experts that coronavirus can be spread through the air. The US Centres for Disease Control and Prevention revised its guidance this month to say the pathogen can linger in the air for hours.

A separate team of Japanese researchers used supercomputer simulations to show that humidity can have a significant effect on the airborne dispersion of virus particles.

[/quote]

.

MichaelG.

[Frances IoMParticipant @francesiom58905]

I wonder if the designers of the Pendolino trains on the UK West Coast route had read the aircraft doc before they designed the air intakes to be close to the air exhaust from the toilets – any one who was a regular traveller especially in what I referred to as Virgin cattle class knew about the ‘foul’ smell of the carriages that was not masked by the air freshener smell injected into the system

Edited By Frances IoM on 22/10/2020 07:41:50

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Rumblings of discontent reported here: **LINK**

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/stephaniemlee/flying-planes-coronavirus-safe

MichaelG.

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

opps

Edited By Dave Halford on 21/11/2020 10:01:23

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

in respect of virus transmission my granddaughter was sent home from school because her teacher tested positive for COVID, a few days later granddaughter became ill and her sister and my daughter and her husband, they were tested and all were positive. I think that illustrates just how easy transmission can occur; my daughter subsequently worsened and was admitted to hospital with COVID and went on to suffer a serious stroke and pneumonia, she is out of hospital and at home but has a long way to go yet for recovery. The transmission illustrated here took place apparently between teacher and pupil in a secondary school which was deemed by our politicians as a low risk situation, imagine sitting in close proximity to a possibly infectious passenger on an aircraft with cabin pressurisation circulating air through the cabin, no hepa filter is ever going to filter 100%, I am afraid it will be a long time before I voluntarily take to the air again. The efficiencies quoted for filters and anti bacterials are usually 99.9% or maybe 99.99% it is the .01% that is the problem and potentially can kill you. Another granddaughter of mine is cabin crew on a major airline and flew a number of flights into areas such as Italy when the pandemic was getting bad there thankfully she survived without developing COVID, since lockdown and furlough she has not flown but is rostered to return to flying in December we in the family are all anxious about her safety as there is no doubt aircraft cabins are pretty risky environments in respect of viral transmission.
Dave W

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Well apparently a ultra violet sterilizer fitted in the recirc system will remove all Covid germs. I hope they read this before my flight in April.2021

Steve.

[ChrisBParticipant @chrisb35596]

Posted by Steviegtr on 22/11/2020 01:00:51:

Well apparently a ultra violet sterilizer fitted in the recirc system will remove all Covid germs. I hope they read this before my flight in April.2021

Steve.

I don't think that will happen any time soon! Modifications on aircraft do take some years to implement! Really, I would not worry much about the quality of the air onboard the aircraft, I would be more concerned that everyone one wears a mask. I would definitely not eat anything on board, and not touch anything as practically possible, and avoid moving around such as going to the lavatories.

Hope by the time you fly we'll be vaccinated and the world will be back for a recovery.

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