Imperial Spanner and Socket advice for a metric person

[Jamie JonesParticipant @jamiejones42723]

hi

I am after some advice on imperial spanners and sockets as I have only ever used metric equipment to date. Although I do have a basic set of imperial spanners that rarely ever gets used.

But I understand that there are different versions of imperial spanners and sockets systems: normal imperial, Whitworth, BSF, BA, AF

Can someone in the knowledge give me some detail as to what the difference is between the different types and what (if possible) the different types were used for? I know that they are all based on the inch system (and fractions of an inch).

My main interest is automotive applications as in Cars and Motorcycles so I am keen to learn where the different system can in use.

Thanks for your time for anyone responding…

[Jamie JonesParticipant @jamiejones42723]

[VicParticipant @vic]

This may help.

http://www.dummett.net/ime/website/ime/s/socket_spanner_sizes.html

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Jamie,

Very briefly:

AF spanners are used for Unified Threads, and the size is expressed as an actual dimension 'across flats'

Whitworth and BSF spanners are 'sized' according to the thread, rather than the nut size. [and originally BSF spanners were one size smaller than the Whitworth equivalent … ]

BA spanners are unique to that [British Association] system.

MichaelG.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

or this:

Actually the link Vic gives explains it all very well, except that UNF/UNC screws are 60-degree (like metric) not 66.

If working on 1980s Fords don't be surprised if you need three different spanners to remove one part such as a thermostat housing. I honestly think some Ford cars of that era had American, Imperial and Metric sizes all mixed together…

Neil

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

In 1961 I bought my first motorized transport, a Lambretta scooter. This was metric, so metric open-ended spanners were bought.

12 months later I swopped it for a Matchless M/c. I had to buy either Whit/BSF or A/F openended spanners. Forget which.

A further 12 months and I bought an Austin A35 van, followed 2 years later by a Morris 1000. Both used either Whit/BSF and/or A/F. I believe there was something odd about these vehicles in that they did not use standard nuts and bolts, possibly UNC/UNF threads but with A/F spanners. Around this time I also bought a Whit/BSF & A/F socket set and both Whit/BSF & A/F ring spanners.

In 1969 I bought a VW Beetle. Back to Metric. But now I had to buy matching ring spanners, and matching sockets.

I was now fully set up for all three systems.

Later I bought Maxi's & a Montego – back to A/F.

Today, I neither know nor care, I've given up on car maintenance, but you will notice that it was a progression for me spread over 8 years.

Does that help? Possibly not. But if you get hold of Harold Hall's book "Metalworker's Data Book" Number 42 in the Workshop Practice Series, you will find that Section 7 covers all these details and lists the various sizes in a chart so that for example for A/F 3/4 inch, you will find that Metric 19mm is 2 thou smaller hence the Metric tool may well fit, and if my experience is anything to go by, it will be a better fit as well.

Incidently, this same book may help with your other question re Metric/Imperial lathes.

Regards,

Peter G. Shaw

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

Just another thought.

You don't actually need specific spanners for Metric. BSF/Whit, A/f etc. What you need is the closest fitting spanner you can get, so as mentioned above, 3/4 inch & 19mm are almost exact and depending on the amount of wear and manufacturing tolerances, there may well be other values similar.

And another thought.

You probably won't need the full range of any particular set, for example, I've a memory that at most, I only ever needed three spanners out of a set of six for the A45 van. And with metric, I think 10mm, 13m & 17mm were all I used in the main. So possibly buy them as you need them.

That might generate a few responses!

Regards,

Peter G. Shaw

ps. I don't mean the nearest adjustable spanner. I do mean the nearest fixed spanner.

Edited By Peter G. Shaw on 14/02/2015 15:13:32

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Peter G. Shaw on 14/02/2015 15:09:40:

Just another thought.

What you need is the closest fitting spanner you can get

.

Jamie,

Adding to Peter's point:

Have a look at the 'Flank Drive' type of spanners [Open; Ring; and Socket versions exist] … These cn be a life-saver; especially if someone has already used an ill-fitting spanner.

MichaelG.

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

yes, so now you need Metric, A/F, BSW/BSF, Ba, Torx socket and wrenches and just to be sure Metric and imperial Allen keys. Top this off with sockets – deep and standard, 1/2",3/8" and 1/4" drive. This is before you go into normal spanners, ring spanners and offsets. As if this were not enough, there are square headed, hex headed and octagonal headed bolts. In short, whatever you have, you will always need another type. I think as others have said, decide what your vehicle needs before buying and then buy as needed. Just be aware that some of the cheaper spanners are quite brittle and I have several where the jaws have snapped off.
When I was an apprentice, the first decent tool I bought was a 48 piece set of Elora 1/2" sockets (In 1963) comprising Bsw/Bsf, A/f and Metric . I still have a complete set which has been well used and sometimes abused over the last 50 odd years. Quality does last.
BobH

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

Quite agree with BobH. I started with Williams open ended spanners and now have the full set. My socket set was Gordon as was my initial purchase of ring spanners. Later I bought Elora metric sockets and ring.

I still have all of them and some are over 50 years old.

A story. I broke a Gordon 3/4 inch ring spanner. Someone told me that they had a lifetime guarantee so I sent it off to the manufacturer. Three weeks later I chased it up and was told that yes my original ring spanner was indeed faulty and that a replacement would soon be on it's way. I was then told that my original ring spanner had been well used, but not abused. Needless to say, I liked that.

Regards,

Peter G. Shaw

[mark costello 1Participant @markcostello1]

Just wait till You get an Imperial thread with Metric head and need to replace the bolt or nut.

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

If you need more explicit advice than that above, it would help to know what you intend to be working on. This means by type of equipment (mechanical, electrical, car, motorcycle, bicycle, electrical) and the country(s) of origin.

For instance, in Europe, modern cars do not use 11, 12, 14mm much, but Japanese stuff can have 12 and 14.

And while there are a few 'same size' spanners, they are limited – 5/16 AF = 8mm, 3/8 Whit = 18mm, as well as the 3/4 AF = 17mm already noted.

Properly speaking, Whitworth is Imperial, ie related to the Empire, but the term is regularly misused to mean 'non-metric'.

Hope this helps.

[oldveloParticipant @oldvelo]

"Just wait till You get an Imperial thread with Metric head and need to replace the bolt or nut".

Yes One Example "Sulzer V90 Vacuum Pumps". Happily not to be found in the home workshop.

One Odd one out that "nowt else will fit" is 5/16 Whitworth.

Eric

[Bodgit Fixit and RunParticipant @bodgitfixitandrun]

'Ammer and cold chisel if all else fails.

[Brian Rice 1Participant @brianrice1]

NeailPosted by Neil Wyatt on 14/02/2015 14:53:24:

or this:

Actually the link Vic gives explains it all very well, except that UNF/UNC screws are 60-degree (like metric) not 66.

If working on 1980s Fords don't be surprised if you need three different spanners to remove one part such as a thermostat housing. I honestly think some Ford cars of that era had American, Imperial and Metric sizes all mixed together…

Neil

I thought all you needed on a Ford was a Birmingham spanner and a chisel.

Neil

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Ha! You've seen me in action!

Vauxhalls seem to have a fair share of 11mm nuts.

Neil

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

My 1974 Triumph Trident was all UNF/UNC so all fastners use AF spanners except for fuel fittings which are BSP and use whitworth sizes. My sons VW polo needed a new clutch, a quick look and I thought I had all required tools, while laying underneath to release the drive shafts I request pass the Torx key, too loose next size please, too big what are you playing at say I. It turns out VW use spline drive fasteners! Yet another set of bits required. They also use the even sizes like 16mm and 18mm, I think it was probably the first outing ever for these spanners. I think manufacturers use as many odd fasteners as they can just to put you off working on things, how about the 5 lobe screws to take the back off your Iphone? The Montego was a metric car as far as I remember and the factory was metricated from at least 1972 when I started work there.

Mike

Edited By Michael Poole on 14/02/2015 19:22:27

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

Michael,

Montego being metric. You may well be correct – it's 16 years since I sold it and memory does play tricks. But with what I had, it didn't really matter – I could cope.

Peter

[MM57Participant @mm57]

Posted by Speedy Builder5 on 14/02/2015 15:26:01:

… there are square headed, hex headed and octagonal headed bolts. In short, whatever you have, you will always need another type….

..exactly…last week I needed a socket for a 5 sided bolt head. As small virtual prize for the correct answer to where it was

Actually – you can award your own prize…
**LINK**

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

If what you have currently is all metric equipment, quick before you buy any imperial put a tag of paint on everything metric so you can sort them out from the mix.

[Jamie JonesParticipant @jamiejones42723]

Thanks for all the info as it has been most helpful. In short, before we went metric it was a hell of a mess

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

I'v solved the problem of sorting metric and UNF/UNC, I use two different brands of spanners, Can't remember the name of the metric ones, they are German, the AF ones are Sidchrome, the Aussies will know that one "You canna hand a man a grander spanner". My metric sockets are in a mixed set of 3/8" drive from China, cost less than $NZ20 20 years ago. The AF socket sets 1/4", 3/8", and 1/2" drive are all S.K. Wayne, and cost well over 100 NZ pounds 50 years ago when I started my apprenticeship as an aircraft mechanic.

Ian S C

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Jamie Jones on 15/02/2015 09:50:07:

Thanks for all the info as it has been most helpful. In short, before we went metric it was a hell of a mess

.

And now we've 'gone metric' … It's a hell of a mess, plus a few !!

MichaelG.

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by mark costello 1 on 14/02/2015 16:21:34:

Just wait till You get an Imperial thread with Metric head and need to replace the bolt or nut.

Not seen that but I had a number of pre-war Morris cars that had metric threads (well French Automobile Thread to be precise) and Whitworth hexagon sizes.

Like others I have an Elora socket set from the 1960s. I thought it was expensive at £9-19-6d but after 50 years of use it is still good.

Russell.

[Gordon WParticipant @gordonw]

I've been buying spanners etc. for 60 years now, and as you will find , you always need a different one. If used a lot they do wear out, recently replaced 11mm, 13mm and 5/8" A/F, so must have been used a bit !

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