If I can find the extra funds would they be welt spent ?

[thaiguzziParticipant @thaiguzzi]

Posted by Clive Foster on 09/11/2017 21:00:10:

Gary

Colchester's and Harrison suffer from the same "everyone has heard of them" issues as Myford and Boxford with similar tendencies for folk in the trade / know / hobby to expect top-line prices for good ones and optimistic ones for ahem "less than good" examples.

The fundamental problem with both Colchester and Harrison is that they were made to offer an excellent price / performance ratio when new and considered disposable machines to be destroyed for the value of the work produced. So most have been rode hard and put away wet.

As David suggests looking at different makes / models will almost certainly give you more bang for your buck. For example my Smart & Brown 1024 VSL, admittedly a slightly smaller machine, cost me just £1,000 whilst the rather smarter M300 standing next to it had £4,500 on the price tag. My 1024 had been rode pretty hard but, being a high end toolroom machine with an ex-factory price tag in the small house region, the underlying build quality meant it had survived just fine. Would have been very dubious of a Student or M300 of similar appearance. All the high end toolroom machines seem to last well.

You can get lucky via E-bay with ex-maintanence shop and similar low use machines either direct or with further low time use from private owner but you could spend fortune running around looking at dross. My pal Mike picked up an excellent, virtually unworn, Student Mk1 1/2 for £650 with loads of tooling via E-Bay so they are about This one had a "why did they do that" redecoration job on it which obviously frightened off other bidders. We were seriously worried that it might actually turn out to be little better than useable rather than the excellent machine it actually was. Thinking back I've probably tripped over 5 or 6 equivalent deals over the last decade by pure happenstance so there is a good chance of finding something if you keep looking.

Smaller dealers will probably offer better prices than the larger ones. For example Simmonds at Cranbrook in Kent, so fairly local to me, have an M300 at £2,500 which looks to be a pretty decent example **LINK** . I've not dealt with them but I have had dealings with MB Machine Tools, who are more or less next door and closely associated business wise, and found them to be more than fair. Can't see them associating with anyone less ethical. Again well off your patch but I've always found Home and Workshop Machinery at Sidcup decent folk to deal with if you want an honest machine at an OK price.

Clive.

John Reese is spot on about the quality of a Pratt & Whitney model B. I grabbed my wartime one out of the hands of a scrap man and it can still turn out superbly accurate work despite some battle scars. But realistically not an M300 / Student replacement and pretty much unobtanium anyway.

Edited By Clive Foster on 09/11/2017 21:06:01

Edited By Clive Foster on 09/11/2017 21:07:29

+1 on the "non fashionable" names.

I have no connection, but I always look at Premier Machine Tools website in Notts. The guy regularly gets in S&B model A's and 1024 VSL recently, all quickly sold, a fully tooled 5" Kerry went for 750 quid. His machines look clean and his prices seem very reasonable.

[I.M. OUTAHEREParticipant @i-m-outahere]

Unfortunately photos can be deceiving and altered with photoshop .

A machine that is spotlessly clean is,no guarantee that it hasn't been abused or is worn out , a good scrub with degreaser and a coat of paint can hide a lot of problems .

A machine that shows oil stains at least shows it had some lubrication but can also indicate a long service life and thus more wear.

It really is like buying a used car , you really must do your homework so you know what you are looking at and for .

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

The opportunity to buy a decent second-hand Industrial Machine is a modern phenomenon, Things were so much easier in the good old days. Before WW2 the advice was generally NOT to buy secondhand:

• 19th century lathes were widely available second-hand and scrap. Not recommended! Because they didn't have to take the strains imposed by HSS tooling, most early lathes are flimsy affairs. They were dumped by Industry worn out or because they couldn't cope with HSS.
• Most lathes were used in factories for repetitive production, initially manual. later with some form of automation. These lathes were run until wear and tear meant they couldn't meet specifications, at which point they were replaced. The worst possible second-hand lathe was one used for manual piecework, which for many years was the most common method way of deciding wages. Piecework pays the operator according to the number of items he makes per hour; machines used on piecework were thrashed brutally, often on a 3-shift system.
• School and College lathes before about 1965 also had hard lives. When metalwork was taken seriously, whole classes of boys would train on a lathe year after year until the lathe had to be replaced. You would not want the lathe that came from my school!
• Toolroom lathes were a much better bet but they rarely appeared.

During WW2 much of British Industry was engaged in war work. Flat out production. Most lathes sold immediately after the war were wrecks. But, over-production of machine tools in the expectation that the war would last longer than it did meant that some unused or nearly new lathes reached the second-hand market. Of course many of these were sold abroad to countries rebuilding after the end of the war.

By 1955 Industry was changing. Factories no longer bought large numbers of manual lathes. They had been moving to automatics since the early 1930s and by the 1960s CNC was rapidly reducing the need for skilled turners. This gradually became apparent in schools and colleges who invested in good quality kit that was little used. Likewise in jobbing machine shops: most of the work done on an automatic, CNC or CAM with a couple of lightly used manuals in the corner. The change isn't like throwing a switch: old-fashioned thrashing still carries on in some places, whilst other machines are mollycoddled until sold as surplus.

The problem with buying second-hand is that you don't know the history. On it's own the brand-name of a second-hand machine means flip-all. What matters is the machines condition and backup (warranty, spares availability etc.). That depends on:

• Where it came from
• Why they're selling it
• Who is selling it
• How it was used, maintained and stored in the past
• When it was made
• What comes with it

In short there are real bargains out there, some names are overpriced, and there are crocks. Even so this is probably the best it will ever be for getting hold of ex-industrial kit in good nick for reasonable money. It's risky. I wouldn't spend a lot of money on anything second-hand without due diligence, ideally by taking an expert to look at the thing; others have had their bravery rewarded.

Dave

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

Good points made by Dave. I known my cost that spares from 600 group are expensive. It’s one reason why I started 3d printing change wheels on a Form Labs machine.

I’ve changed my own views as a result of reading these posts. I’d still buy British if I had to again, but I know what to look for from using lathes at work and home. My first home lathe was Chinese and was no good; I now know that the likes of Warco etc are decent bits of kit. So I’d now say buy Chinese from them or similar unless you know what to look for and are prepared to dig around for a decent second hander. It’s likely to be the trouble free option.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Absolute Beginner on 10/11/2017 00:39:06:

David, I admire your commitment to the cause.

I must confess I have considered dismissed, re considered and sort of dismissed Warco laths, I Know this might seem quite trivial but the colour puts me off

I love the look and have seen good and bad posts on the Grizley machines, but they are not available here in the uk, at least there are not any uk dealers that I am aware off. I haven't dismissed your comments on the Boxford X10, as you can see by my posts I have been deliberating for some time but can still easily be swayed.

Its just about trying to make the right choice at the right price. If I carry on much longer I will just end up buying a new one and have done with it, and that will be a serious misuse of funds.

Gary

I think the Grizzly and Warco machines are both made by Real Bull.

Neil

[KMPParticipant @kmp]

I believe we have all been through this dilemma but rejecting a lathe because of the colour would be a new one on me. Particularly as Warco are one of the better companies to deal with and have always provided me with good, keenly priced and very usable equipment. Anyway, Dave has made some excellent points but I can't see where anyone has addressed Gary's questions about likely life span etc.

To put these machines into perspective (M300, Student) they certainly were aimed initially at the education and maintenance worlds although widely used elsewhere in industry by smaller companies. Having been involved with a major machine jobbing shop and training facility the Student was standard fodder in our training facility (35 lathes various models), it proved to be resilient and accurate over the 20 years I was involved and we only scrapped one due to a cracked headstock casting where one "student" decided to select top speed without the operators knowledge and another thought it would be good fun to distract the guy during the cut?? Most maintenance was normal wear and tear, Headstock bearings were superb (in their class) and bed ways were OK but would dent if components were dropped on them. Blending out damage was a standard practise. We had a couple of Colchesters in the main workshop but they got very little use and weren't popular with our turners.

The Harrisons were mainly used in our maintenance department and proved extremely reliable and accurate, the couple in our main shop were always chosen over the similar sized Students for some reason. I haven't any particular memories of failure but we did suffer a couple of gearbox failures which were a fiddle to fix. The accountants didn't like them as at the time we got a better deal on the Colchesters.

Neither of these two types figured in our tool room as they lacked the accuracy that a aerospace facility required over time. The only M300 in the tool room was for the apprentices all of whom worked hard to graduate to the CVAs, Monarchs and Schaublin's that "the men" used.

In my opinion, for the hobby user they are an excellent but expensive choice. The name they have acquired and the cost of parts and accessories if available are the cause of this. A difficult choice to recommend for any "first timer" when secondhand as they can be fairly lightweight when abused and worked hard, and no matter what anyone says many have gone from training to small production companies and are now well worn. I have seen them in well respected tool dealers that I certainly wouldn't buy both for price and condition. Obviously, if I could find a well equipped, well looked after example for a fair price I would recommend to anyone in our hobby. For my own personal use I find them heavy and insensitive (particularly the Student early models) and not that flexible when the cost of accessories is included.

My go to recommendation for first time buyers is, any lathe is better than nothing, most learning is done by using the machine and understanding what it can do well, Excellent work can be produced on a fairly worn lathe if you understand how to compensate for the wear. A medium sized Chinese lathe (say a Warco WM280V) is ideal for most things we do and perhaps not surprising these days holds value well. For £2K with at least 60% return if you look after it. It will need proper "setting up" but in the hobby workshop will easily give at least 10-15 years service. I have just sold a Warco BH600 built in 2000, working and looking as good as new and sold for what I bought it for.

Hope you find what you are looking for but honestly, don't worry about the colour.

Keith

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Absolute Beginner on 10/11/2017 01:19:28:

Yes David, as I said I understand that Grizzly machines are not sold in the UK although they do offer the price in UK pounds on their site and offer to ship to the Uk, not sure as to what that might cost.

…

Gary

Edited By Absolute Beginner on 10/11/2017 01:22:03

We're fortunate in the UK to have several importers of Far Eastern kit. The advantage of buying local rather than importing a Grizzly is that you're protected by UK consumer law if you open the box and find a serious problem, plus there's local support, and they do all the paperwork. Importing likely involves a lot of admin and extra costs too; expect to pay duty on expensive items! If for some very special reason I was going to import a Chinese lathe, I'd do it direct from China, not via the USA.

Colour is an interesting criterion: opinions vary! Colour doesn't worry me but I'm the type who enjoys an untidy workshop. For others a sense of order and aesthetics are much more important. They're not wrong! I'd just say that lathes aren't difficult to repaint.

Dave

PS Grizzly manuals are usually better than ours. They're free on their website.

[JonParticipant @jon]

Personally i prefer a used second hand quality lathe made in England, US or some parts of Europe to anthing made in china new.
Difference is quality and longetivity due to far better castings and other steels used, downside is the cost of parts try enquiring to the 600 Group and dont be suprised to be greeted with 600- 800 for a lead screw.

Leading on have to be in right place at the right time got my English M300 for £850 and sold the Dickson tool post for £100, downside painted green and looks like a warco. First priority should be the mechanics not looks. Newer Harrisons are chinese.

Have seen with mills 942's brand new 20 yrs ago £4200, well used and clearly worn out selling for more than new price.
Of course i could do a so called renovation on M300 or refurb ie paint job, merely clean it up like so many do and flog for in excess of £2200.
Hate the Harrison yahoo group layout, it was tolerable until the revamp about 6 yrs ago.

Nearly bought the BH600 from another place 18 years ago non in stock, same with Crusader and so glad didnt get sucked in to the CUB with unusual D fitting. Either way they wouldnt have lasted half as long as a used quality lathe.
Had two chinese mills new both had massively worn leadscrews two broke and all the ways well worn in no time. Heavier ones its a right pain to gut the shop to get the thing out to replace. Even worse is cost of the parts if at all they can be found within 6 months – motor on one £256 whole new machine 2 yrs before was £650, other mill the transfer box for elevation on a Super Lux £244 whole machine new £930 12 yrs ago from £1500.

The Boxford above is made in china and highly likely made with better materials and spec than from one of the many rebrand dealers worldwide.

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