Hello… lots of advice needed

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

John, I agree with your thoughts on the Adept lathe. When it was made the person that bought one would most likely have knowledge of lathe work in industry, and at school unlike most today, but today one can go to a shop and buy a lathe off the shelf, and I'm sure some think that's it. I know of one or two like that, the owner has found there's more to it than they thought, but I get a chance every now and then to help them and at the same time try to teach a little bit of the little bit that I know. Two of these lathes are Myford 7, and the other two are Chinese, and one is a Pratt with a bed about 7ft long, and a chuck about 15—18" dia, somewhere around 80 years old, maybe more. Sorry, rambling on. Ian S C

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Well Lofty (as I've said elsewhere) I'm no expert so at the risk of being told I'm a complete twit, I will tell you how I did it in this case. I was making a hydraulic test pump and needed a reasonably accurate hole drilled in the pump body. I was going to then tap this but also intended to bore a slight recess for the ram guide. I had a piece of scrap brass about the right size but it had a raised rim at one end that I should probably (with hindsight) have completely removed.

OK – on to how I finally decided to do it. I mounted the brass in my four jaw and used a drill bit to pack one end up (square). I then took a facing cut across the whole length, first having to cut down through the rim. I watched this carefully until I got down to the main body. At this point I realised that I hadn't managed to get the body completely square (or maybe it moved) as the cut was slightly tapered (any small difference will show up clearly here). However, it was good enough for my purposes and I unscrewed the chuck and carefully centre punched in the middle of my facing cut at the point I wanted to drill the hole. I had already made sure the brass was pretty much where I wanted it by the way. I then simply returned the chuck to the lathe and set it truly centre using the method previously described. I didn't need to do too much adjustment but there was risk that the brass could have rotated slightly as I moved it but not much movement was required and it seemed to work out well.

I tend to take photos of workshop things these day, as it is so easy (& low cost) to do and I find it very helpful to recall what (and when) I've done things. A kind of photo diary if you will. So you are in luck as I've a photo of the work in question after being faced and centre punched but before I returned it to the lathe. I'm sure there are better ways to do this but this is how I did it.

I hope this is helpful. Regards, IanT

[IanTParticipant @iant]

And now back to Steven's Adept.

Steven, I'm only on my third mug of Tea but have already found and read the 1947 ME Article. It's title is "Rebuilding" and indeed that is pretty much what the writer did, turning his Adept into a small watch making lathe in the process. I'm not sure you will be able to do anything approaching this but it does show what is possible. I'll scan it and email it to you later.

I have been thinking about this issue overnight. I think the majority here would tell you not to start your model engineering journey from this particular starting point. However if you want to view your Adept as a "project" then I think the following might be a good approach.

As John advises, it doesn't make much sense to spend too much money on this little lathe. However, with a little help you may not need to. You will need to spend some money but I think you should constrain this expenditure to items that you would either need anyway (hand tools, means of measurement & tool sharpening for instance) and any accessories/tooling that can be used on any later machinery that you might decide to acquire. You will have to spend some money but I find doing it in small increments over time does tend to make things seem more affordable!

The other thing I'd suggest is to take this project one step at a time – as when looked at (as a whole project) it will all seem very intimidating. However, if you look at the problems in isolation, take your time and make a game/puzzle out of solving each problem, it will make things much easier to manage. Also, if you hit a specific problem (that you cannot solve) then it will be much easier to see if someone can give you some specific assistance. I have a very large scrap bin that I think of as "My Precious" that I know in my heart of hearts is one day going to the Tip. I might be able to find a few things of use to you as we go along and maybe even use some of my antique machine collection to help out from time to time. No promises and I don't do things at the Speed of Light, it's more like a slow trip down the Kennet & Avon. However if you are willing to spend some of your time on this project, then I will chip in some of mine too. I'm too far away to give any direct eyeball (or machinery) support but simple things should be doable remotely.

So down to you Steven – lets have some photos of your 'project' if you want to kick this off and we can all have a good argument (sorry – discussion) about the best way forward for you (much better than watching Sunday Politics on TV). I would suggest before you go any further that we try to establish how good the spindle (mandrel) in your lathe is? There's no point in worrying about motorising your lathe if the mandrel is rubbish.

Anyway, it's up to you but at least this might be something to think about.

Regards,

IanT

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

Ahhh, I see, many thanks.

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Lofty,

Just as a comment – but if I was doing this again – I would probably not take a whole facing cut. It didn't occur to me at the time but I could have just moved the tool much nearer to the centre and just taken a light cut in from there. You only need to lightly face/mark the top of the cylinder. This smaller mark would then have completely disappeared once drilled & bored. It didn't make any difference (e.g. I wasn't concerned about it cosmetically) in this case but it might have on other work.

Anyway, it's one solution but I am sure that there are others.

Regards,

IanT

[Steven GreenhoughParticipant @stevengreenhough56335]

Right then.

Sorry to take so long, I've spent the day wallpapering (which I should have done yesterday) and cleaned up the Super Adept when I should have been having my tea.

Here it is. (I know that the wooden block it's mounted on isn't a suitable stand. It's just to stop it falling over in the meantime…)

Edited By Steven Greenhough on 02/03/2014 22:27:13

Edited By Steven Greenhough on 02/03/2014 22:33:45

[Steven GreenhoughParticipant @stevengreenhough56335]

The ways were caked in crud which I removed with a small brass brush, and a suede shoe cleaning brush. The tarnishing which can be seen isn't perceptible when I run my finger over it. The small 'ding' on the front of the forward way is perceptible to the finger but not through the hand wheel or by pressing on the carriage as it passes over.

The non-machined bits of the lathe were cleaned by judicial application of a wire brush. Quite a few areas are back to the bare iron, a mistake on my part no doubt.

[Steven GreenhoughParticipant @stevengreenhough56335]

These pictures show the condition of the mandrel/spindle.

There is some tarnishing, particularly where the pulleys sit, but the surface is smooth to the touch and it seems to turn in the bearings very smoothly. There are no scores that i can feel. There is annoying brushing sound that comes from the forward face of the pulley on the back side of the nose bearing; it is also awkward to position the pulley on the mandrel so that it doesn't bounce back and forwards a little, whilst not binding, again making this noise, at the same time. Perhaps some thin brass/bronze shims would help here?

There is virtually zero play when the mandrel is in the bearings with the pinch-screws open. Tightening the screws is very off/on; Small tweaks of approximately 45 degrees do nothing, then all of a sudden the mandrel is gripped tight. Backing off by about half a tweak frees the mandrel to turn. I guess this is roughly the correct operating setting?

The insides of the bearings appear similar to the mandrel, but darker. I guess this is due to the different material?

[Steven GreenhoughParticipant @stevengreenhough56335]

All comments/opinions are welcome. So far this little fella hasn't cost me anything except some pipe-caps which are on order from China.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Definitely looks like a refuge from a British Steel scrap skip.

Seriously you are lacking a usable motor, a usable chuck and if you buy one it's not going to fit anything else.

There is a good reason why these used to sell for £3. It because they cost £2 to make so if you want to convince yourself it's usable then who are we, that's the royal we, with 27,685 years work of experience [ and that's only Norman ] to tell you other wise.

Look at this in a different light and you might have to go back a few posts to see what i mean.

As soon as anyone mentions a Chinese machine with a couple of defects one of the resident bar room lawyers [ and we definitely have more than our fair share on here, if fact I'm sure some village is missing it's idiot somewhere but I digress ] spouts off about Schlesingers limits, distance selling regs and having the importer neutered [ mind you lets not just throw that one out at the moment – it bears further thought ]

Now fast backwards 60 odd years to when these were fresh out of the sand, won't say machined at this stage.

Now where was Schlesinger when you needed him? Probably still sorting out Jewish POW's to work on the Adapt lathe. But virtually everyone is coming to the rescue of the reputation of a lathe that never deserved one.

They were crap, they still are crap and a pair of knitting needles are more accurate and productive.

[WALLACEParticipant @wallace]

It’s from an age when you were lucky if you owned a push bike and wireless meant something with a cats whisker.

I’m totally with John – bin it.

W.

Edited By WALLACE on 02/03/2014 23:23:58

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Well I guess you've had the expert view Steven.

Perhaps more to the point – what would you like to do now?

Regards,

IanT

[Steven GreenhoughParticipant @stevengreenhough56335]

Posted by John Stevenson on 02/03/2014 22:51:32:

Definitely looks like a refuge from a British Steel scrap skip.

Seriously you are lacking a usable motor, a usable chuck and if you buy one it's not going to fit anything else.

There is a good reason why these used to sell for £3. It because they cost £2 to make so if you want to convince yourself it's usable then who are we, that's the royal we, with 27,685 years work of experience [ and that's only Norman ] to tell you other wise.

Look at this in a different light and you might have to go back a few posts to see what i mean.

As soon as anyone mentions a Chinese machine with a couple of defects one of the resident bar room lawyers [ and we definitely have more than our fair share on here, if fact I'm sure some village is missing it's idiot somewhere but I digress ] spouts off about Schlesingers limits, distance selling regs and having the importer neutered [ mind you lets not just throw that one out at the moment – it bears further thought ]

Now fast backwards 60 odd years to when these were fresh out of the sand, won't say machined at this stage.

Now where was Schlesinger when you needed him? Probably still sorting out Jewish POW's to work on the Adapt lathe. But virtually everyone is coming to the rescue of the reputation of a lathe that never deserved one.

They were crap, they still are crap and a pair of knitting needles are more accurate and productive.

Hi.

Thanks for your comments. I asked for all views and, well, I'm getting them.

I know for a fact it isn't from a scrap bin. That's not to say that it isn't scrap, what would I know, but the previous owner (my father in law, not 'Magic Mike' from down the pub) has held onto this for many years; It was his fathers. I'm not sure what he used it for. My father in law, didn't use it at all, despite being an engineer. This might suggest he knows it's crap, but by that token so's every other machine in the world cos he's not used a lathe, mill, drill (well maybe a black and decker to put up a shelf) since he was made redundant from the Senior Service cigarette factory in Hyde.

There seems to be a notion that this is what I've chosen, but it's not, it's a freebie. There seems to be a notion that I, in my lengthy experience of the field, am siding with some puritan notion of rejecting Chinese lathes in favour of English Vintage, that I'm determined to do it 'My Way', even though I can't claim to know what 'my way' would be in the context of engineering… I'm not, I'd love one. I could just call up WARCO (et al) tomorrow and order their Super-mini (or whoever's equivalent) and a load of tooling… except that I can't.

An optimistic estimate for obtaining one of these machines, new, is six months from now. And even then I'll have nothing to use it with, so probably 9 months before i could get into the shed. That may sound impatient; that's because I'm getting impatient, because I've been patient for a good while already.

I know I have no chuck, or motor, which is why I've asked about them…

And I really don't understand your comments about Schlesinger or Jews, certainly not the context/irony that I think you're implying. So I guess either that must be the point or they were for everyone else's benefit?

I'm sorry if I'm taking your post the wrong way? Perhaps I've been asking the wrong questions?

Hi Guys I'm Steve, from Droylsden in Manchester. I'm going to start building little steam engines at some point. Where do I start on a (very) limited budget?

[Steven GreenhoughParticipant @stevengreenhough56335]

Posted by IanT on 02/03/2014 23:29:21:

Well I guess you've had the expert view Steven.

Perhaps more to the point – what would you like to do now?

Regards,

IanT

Really don't know.

I thought I'd found myself a starting point, But get the feeling there may be no point. I was kind of expecting folk to tell me it would be 'difficult', but…

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Sorry if it sounds hard but I don't want you wasting your time and what little money you obviously have [ or don't have] only to get frustrated and further down the line loose heart because you have dug yourself into a hole you can't afford to get out of.

So to take your question again.

Hi Guys I'm Steve, from Droylsden in Manchester. I'm going to start building little steam engines at some point. Where do I start on a (very) limited budget?

The simplest steam engines is a single cylinder, single acting oscillator. Often called a wobbler.

Remember the Mamod steam toys ? well that's what they were. Now many people have started off building these with no machine tools other than an electric drill and a few hand tools.

Much of the machining on one of these can be done by selective fitting of standard metal sections like a piece of tube for the cylinder with a close fitting bit of brass bar for a piston. Another bit of the piston material can be soldered into the top to cap the cylinder off, etc, etc.

Plenty of drawings / designs on the web for free, most of a engine in fact all of an engine can be built for pence if you are a good scrounger.

That will keep you busy for a while, allow you to generate much needed skills in using hand tools that will never be wasted but more importantly it will allow you to pursue your goal and hopefully at the end will allow you to make a more practical decision.

I am not pushing Chinese just something that is usable.

On the Homeworkshop ads site there is a Portass lathe just been advertised.

**LINK** see advert number 18563.

It has a chuck and motor and it can screw cut so that can save you pound in not having to buy threading tackle at the start.

I am not saying go for this but it's along these lines you need to be looking but only when you feel you are confident enough to go on and also afford it.

[Steven GreenhoughParticipant @stevengreenhough56335]

That looks lovely to me John. I’ll have a think about that today.

[LambtonParticipant @lambton]

Steven,

I really do not understand what more you are expecting as a result of your original posting.

To date you have had an awful lot of very good advice, offers of personal help, offers of the use of fellow model engineers’ workshops etc. none of appears to satisfy your original request for “lots of advice”.

You are attempting to begin model engineering with an almost antique and incomplete lathe on which you cannot afford to spend much money. This is going to be difficult as all the help and advice you have received will not do you any good unless you have a clear objective and a budget plan to achieve it.

I am sorry but I am getting a little confused and frustrated with this thread as I no longer know what you actually want from it.

Eric

[MICHAEL WILLIAMSParticipant @michaelwilliams41215]

Steven G – you have a pm .

[Steven GreenhoughParticipant @stevengreenhough56335]

Lambton:

I’m sorry if my lack of understanding is ccausing your frustration. Please understand, I am greatful to everyone who has posted, I’m not rejecting anything that anyone has said. I don’t expect anything ‘more’ I am merely expressing my own frustration as I am now very unsure as to how to proceed, because you have all given such such good, reasoned advice, and generous offers of help, regardless of whether you are for or against me trying to get going with the A***t!

It is not my intention to appear ungrateful, argumentative, or dismissive.

[Steven GreenhoughParticipant @stevengreenhough56335]

Any pm’s I have may have to wait till lunch, the boss is watching…

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Send her out shopping………………..

[Steven GreenhoughParticipant @stevengreenhough56335]

Unfortunately it’s my actual boss. I sit within direct eye shot of my boss and the firms information security officer…

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

So if you can read a reply and rely to it why can't you read a PM ?

Your monitor only got one page ?

[Steven GreenhoughParticipant @stevengreenhough56335]

Haha no it is more to do with the fact that I was ‘multitasking’ away from my desk while writing my earlier post…

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Well done for hanging in there Steve.

I would have loved an Adept when I started out. At that time an ML10 without motor or chuck was 2 months wages, Exchange and Mart seldom had any lathes advertised and all the companies that had once made cheaper lathes like Perfecto and Exe had given up. Technically I could have bought a lathe if I could find one but a car and accommodation were higher on the list of essentials.
Sometimes we forget that not everyone has loose money lying around and even if they do may not be able to allocate it to the lathe budget.

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