Gazelle 2-2-2 Drawings

[Ian AbbottParticipant @ianabbott31222]

[Ian AbbottParticipant @ianabbott31222]

Does anyone know if there are any drawings for the Shropshire & Montgomeryshire, Dodman built “Gazelle” in its 2-2-2 incarnation, either scale or original works.

 

The loco is preserved at the Colonel Stephens museum at Tenterden as an 0-4-2.

 

Ta,

Ian 

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi There

I think drawings were published in the old Model Railway News magazine.

Possibly around 1965 or so.

There are online indexes somewhere for railway drawings.

regards David

[Ian AbbottParticipant @ianabbott31222]

Thanks David,  so far I’ve only been able to find stuff on its 0-4-2 incarnation.  I have a middle distance photo in one of my books as a 2-2-2, but that’s all.  I may have to do some creative draughting work on a 0-4-2 drawing.

 

Ian 

[Ian AbbottParticipant @ianabbott31222]

‘Kay,  the MRN article is in the January 1971 issue.  I’ve requested a search for a copy.

The Colonel Stephens Society has a very basic set of drawings of the 0-4-2 plus cab variety, with a scrap added of the big wheel of the 2-2-2, which may or may not be available.  They also have a couple of useful photos on their site.

 

East Kent is a bit far to go for photographs, so that’ll have to wait, but I can start laying out drawings for a 5″ gauge model with scale cylinders of 0.354” x 0.796”.

 

Any other information would be very welcome. 

 

Thanks 

Ian 

[Ian AbbottParticipant @ianabbott31222]

So, I’ve had several out of print magazine suppliers looking for anything on Gazelle, but there is apparently nothing out there.

I’m promised a drawing with general outside dimensions, but nothing yet.

 

I’ve collected several photographs of Gazelle and from these, the drawings are emerging.

 

The wheels are intriguing, with teak fill between the rim and hub.  I’m trying to upload some of the preliminary CAD output, but the site is acting up. The first sheet is the wheel construction. Others are the beginnings of the frames and axles.

 

I hope that showing the work in progress might interest a few watchers.

 

Ian 

 

 

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Ian, nice drawings, interesting design for a wheel. Were they designed for cost puposes, or some sort of structural integrity?

Regards Nick.

[Ian AbbottParticipant @ianabbott31222]

Hi,

 

Gazelle was built as a sort of executive runabout, the teak wheels were supposed to give a better ride.  I doubt that using hardwood on model wheels would make any noticeable improvement, but building them as on the prototype just seems right.

I’m still working out the building process in my head, but they should be within the capabilities of most small lathes.

 

Ian 

[Ian AbbottParticipant @ianabbott31222]

I’ve put up the preliminary frames and horns.  The horns and axleboxes are from the 4F, as they seem to fit nicely in the shallow frames.

No positions for the cylinders, motion and brakes yet, until I get more information.

 

Interesting thing, the drive axle is right under the firebox.

 

Buffer beams, stretchers next, then perhaps cylinders and motion. 

 

Ian 

[Ian AbbottParticipant @ianabbott31222]

[Ian AbbottParticipant @ianabbott31222]

Managed to get back to work on the Gazelle design, the 3D layout of the frames and cylinders look to be almost right.

 

More pictures in the album. 

 

Ian 

 

[Joe FitzjohnParticipant @joefitzjohn67084]

Hello Ian

I'm a boilersmith in training, currently working on full sized engines and wanting to build one of my own, I'm currently on the lookout to finding as many drawings of Gazelle as I can. I've noticed you're building the 2-2-2 variant and was wondering if you have any further drawings of the chassis. I'm looking to build the 0-4-2 variant of her. I understand when she went to bagnalls for rebuilding, the work largely consisted of lowering the crank axle and the shortening of the pistons and valve rods.

But the short of this is I was wondering if you had any more drawings in higher quality and your assistance would be greatly appreciated.

Regards
Joe

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

The post before yours was in 2010 so you may not have much luck

[RedsetterParticipant @redsetter]

I can't help with drawings but I have often wondered what was actually done in the rebuild, as (in theory anyway) the original cylinder centre line would be quite incorrect for the new position of the driving axle.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Ian is still an active forum member and last posted a few days ago.

Joe, you might want to send him a PM – use the 'message member' link beneath on of his posts.

Neil

[Ian AbbottParticipant @ianabbott31222]

Hey, I'm here.

So, thanks to a combination of several parts of my body giving up the ghost and a couple of long distance moves, back to Canada, I've had neither a workshop nor access to my CAD program. For a few years.

Anyway, I finally have my Big Mac up and running for CAD and when the weather warms up I reckon that I can maybe spend an hour or so a day in the workshop before needing a lie down and I'm slowly sorting through all of the files on the computer.

Joe, The Colonel Stephens museum apparently has a general drawing of Gazelle. I was going to take a ride over there to pick up a copy and take measurements, when the first kidney failure hit. Then while they were looking around after that, they found all sorts of other stuff that was on the point of collapse. Hoo-f******-ray I thought.

I had it in my mind to start building a 1/8th masonite mock up of the frames to get an idea of where I'm at after such a long time and test fit some parts.

I've done drawings for wheels, axles, preliminary cylinders, frames and some trial motion sketches. Can't remember what else, but I'll convert what I've done and put it in the album.

I should say here, that the NHS really looked after me, I was on first name terms with the doctors and anesthetist by the time we left. They even sent a file with me for the doctors here.

All I need to do now is stay alive long enough to clear the backlog of stuff in the workshop.

Ian

[Ian AbbottParticipant @ianabbott31222]

Darn thing dumped me. Now I have try and remember what I've just written.

So, I've changed most of the drawings in the album to up to date versions. It's a tedious business, Vectorworks to DXF, DXF into Illustrator to PDF, PDF into Photoshop for a JPG, which is all the album will accept.

Depending upon how much of my time the leeches take when I'm not asleep, I'll try to get some more done, particularly the outside views and valve gear. My doctor was muttering about stuff like dialysis if I don't behave, so I'm being easy on myself. I think Nurse Dracula at the lab has more of my blood than I do.

I don't think that I'll be able to produce a loco, but I'll carry on and share anything that comes out of the draughting.

If anyone thinks they might want to do any misguided thing like building a Gazelle, I'd be more than happy to send a DXF file or three by whatever means. They should go by email I think and they're only about 600K.

Ian

[RedsetterParticipant @redsetter]

Joe,

Do you have any detailed information on the rebuild?

Looking at Ian's frame drawing of the 2-2-2, which may well be correct, the cylinders are horizontal and close to the bottom edge of the frame. In the rebuild the crank axle would be about 9 inches lower, the axleboxes would be falling out of the horns, and to preserve the geometry of the motion the cylinders would have to be lowered or inclined. All this would involve significant alteration (or replacement) of the frames.

It was quite a major rebuild and I think this has to be understood before making a model in either form. A look under the actual loco would reveal a lot.

[Joe FitzjohnParticipant @joefitzjohn67084]

Hi Ian, thanks for replying, as I say, my long term project is to go full size on her.

I mean she's clearly small enough for the job, but hey this is a long term project when I've gained enough experiance with building boilers.

We're expected to be building at least 3 new boilers from scratch, so I should be up to the task by the end of that.

I've obtained as many drawings of the loco as I could and found out as much as I could from her time at Bagnalls the quote from the works report is as follows:

The explanation may lie in the fact that while on the face of it, to convert the locomotive from a 2-2-2 wheel arrangement to an 0-4-2 appears to be a job of some magnitude, in fact, the way it was achieved was quite simple. To accommodate the new and smaller wheels, the short rod between the spring buckles and the top axleboxes has been replaced with a longer one so as to locate hte axleboxes in their new positions at the bottom, rather than the top of the horns. The springs therefore, remain in their original positions and the frameplates have not been altered in anyway. The consequences of a displaced or even broken spring, would be quite serious. The cylinders were not moved either and to allow for the different angles of the connecting rods and eccenctrics, with the original crank axle being much lower, the piston and valve rods were shortened. Fortunately, there was sufficiant clearance for this, but what effect it might have had on the valve timing has gone unrecorded(!!)

So yeah, the frames weren't exactly touched during her rebuild into an 0-4-2. Any problems that do occur, I'll more than likely had to fix on the job as she's put through her paces.

So sorry to hear about your ill health Ian, any drawings you do have developed for Gazelle would be greatly appreciated. I've got a couple of decades worth of life left in me, I'll see if I can make this work…!

[Ian AbbottParticipant @ianabbott31222]

Hi Guys,

I think a quick look underneath would tell you an awful lot, but I didn't manage to get to the museum before they grounded me.

For the pre-rebuild shape, I followed the line of the frames to where they disappear behind the wheels and then drew what would be needed to hang a horn onto. I didn't really think the layout would be strong enough, but considering the weight, or lack of it, on a model there shouldn't be a lot of problems. It's been a while since I've looked at the photographs, but I don't think I saw any bracing between the sides.

It's possible that they could have added a piece to match the leading and trailing horns when they lowered the axle and perhaps added plate to the join. I tried to visualise an extended axlebox, but that, I think, wouldn't work. I'd certainly be interested if anyone come up with some pictures inside the frames, both before and after the re-build.

From what I can see in the photographs, the cylinders seem to be in line with the original axle centre. My problem there though is getting the valve motion to fit. I have no information at all and the photographs show nothing. It could be just a very simple layout, given that the loco wasn't intended for any serious work.

The new smaller wheel apparently is cast using one of the leading or trailing wheels as a pattern.

I'll try to find the photos and add some to the album.

TTFN

Ian

[RedsetterParticipant @redsetter]

It is indeed surprising that they got away with just lowering the axle, if they did – I wonder how well it ran?

Col, Stephens Society states that Stephenson gear was used which is what you would expect, but in this case it is best not to jump to conclusions!

The photo at Kings Lynn when new shows reverse lever on the right of the footplate, and some detail below the frame. The bottom eccentric rods can just be seen under the frame. There are two levers projecting downwards. I think the longer one is a brake lever and the shorter one is the connection to the weighshaft.

I have read somewhere (Industrial railway society?) that the cranks and eccentrics were outboard of the firebox, rather than below it, which suggests widely spaced cylinder bores with the valves between them.

The weighshaft and link suspension is the main puzzle. I am tempted to start drawing!

[WearyParticipant @weary]

There is a view of the cylinders of the present incarnation of Gazelle here, around 0:41. But they seem to be located immediately behind the leading axle, rather than in-front of it as you have drawn as that looks like an axle at bottom-right of picture level with cylinder lower edge (?). It does however confirm that the cylinders are widely spaced being attached directly to the frames

Many other detail views of current state of the loco' in the video too.

Regards,

Phil

[RedsetterParticipant @redsetter]

Fascinating details in the video, and it does establish the cylinder position. It all looks very lightly built. As there is no sign of a valve spindle, I think the steam chest has been removed and blanked off using the cover plate.

[WearyParticipant @weary]

This angled shot shows the valve spindle and confirms the cylinder position showing that there is nothing substantial between the leading axle and the buffer-beam below footplate level.

Picture source: Deviant Art gallery here.

Plus, if you scroll down this page, under the heading GAZELLE and an illustration there is, amongst other matters covered in a brief discussion and description, the following sentence: The crank axle is behind the fire-box, the connecting rod and eccentrics working between it and the frame.   Thus fixing those positions.

Locomotive looks like a very interesting model project.

Regards,

Phil

Edited By Weary on 25/02/2018 20:56:14

[Ian AbbottParticipant @ianabbott31222]

Worked on the general view a bit today. Projecting for the plan view brings more into focus and emphasises how narrow the firebox must be. The Stephens Museum photos are a great help for where the plans I pulled from on line are lacking.

For a model I might prefer to keep the cylinders forward 'cos the valve gear is going to be really cramped in 5" gauge.

On the plan I have, all the measurements are blurred out, so I've imported them into a layer under the draughting layer and set the scale from the gauge under the wheels. This way I can just work across the sheet and put dimensions directly on in 1:1 scale, which could be helpful for Joe.

Ian

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