Engineering Origin of a Common Phrase?

[Jon GibbsParticipant @jongibbs59756]

Posted by JasonB on 29/05/2016 10:04:26:

Fast & loose can also refer to flat belt pullies, a fast drive pully fixed to the shaft with a loose pully next to it that spins on te shaft so the belt can be moved from one to another when power is required or not

That was the one I had always associated with "fast and loose" but I suppose that use must have been simply re-purposing the already well-established phrase.

Jon

[Clive HaynesParticipant @clivehaynes74488]

Call me old fashioned but I still use the fag paper for finding the edge. I've got a wobbler but never use it, just the tool that's in the collet at the time. Worked for me over the years.

Clive

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Mostly wrong suggestions from me today I think! Sharp as a tack; Nailed it; Highly strung; Railroaded; Right as a trivet; Straight as a die; Razor sharp; Stroppy; Brassy; Burnt out; Hatchet job; and "Nut screws Washer and bolts."

Old jokes are definitely the best.

[Keith HaleParticipant @keithhale68713]

First heard 50 years ago that "Nut Screws Washer and Bolts" was a newspaper headline.

It told the story of a physcopath who entered a launderette, had sex with a customer and fled.

Oh well!

Keith

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

A sailing vessel head into the wind and stationary is sad to, 'In irons'.

Clive

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Perhaps it is time to introduce some new ones, based on modern engineering.

Now this may seem a bit M4 but CNC is bringing in new terms that can be applied to everyday situations if you are not all G20. We can discuss this with an M8 down the pub or do you just want to '28 on me.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Nick_G's mention of nautical terms reminded me that "a square meal" dates to the thick square wooden plates used by matelots in the sailing navy to eat their lobscouse. The heavy plates were withdrawn because their sharp corners made them a deadly weapon in the hands of the proverbial drunken sailor.

I like Bazyle's notion that we should introduce new ones based on modern engineering. It must be happening already: 24×7; turbo-; high-octane; quantum leap; cyber-;

I went off the rails a bit with my suggestions in yesterday's post but I think there's a cast-iron case for "running like clockwork."

I really should be working…

Dave

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Like a little cast iron ingot in the local museum, it has the words cast on top, "I have a cast iron alibi" .  Ian S

 

 

Edited By Ian S C on 30/05/2016 12:06:46

[mechman48Participant @mechman48]

On the nautical theme… 'show a leg' was to show a watch keeper that during a call for the next watch that the matelot in the hammock was a genuine sailor & not his female 'companion' as it was known that women secreted themselves aboard ship to be close to their man friend, hairy leg – male, smooth leg – female.

'Let the cat out of the bag'… cat of nine tails was kept in a leather bag below decks in a quiet corner but all knew where ( hence keep it quiet ) … thus 'keep your trap shut' , any punishable offence brought the cat out & administered accordingly…

George.

[Jon GibbsParticipant @jongibbs59756]

Posted by mechman48 on 30/05/2016 12:32:26:

'Let the cat out of the bag'…

Hmm. You may be right but I always thought this came from the unscrupulous medieval seller putting a cat or small dog in the bag when the purchaser thought they were buying a piglet or pig in a poke.

Hence being sold a pup or when it was revealed, letting the cat out of the bag, are both coming from the same scam.

Jon

[Martin King 2Participant @martinking2]

Mechman is correct, almost! The cat o nine tails was kept on a red soft cloth bag not leather, well described in Patrick o Brian's novels.

Martin

[Brian GParticipant @briang]

I understood the "fast" in "fast and loose" as meaning secure (as in fasten, fastness and fast asleep) rather than being related to speed, so fast and loose meaning tied and untied would be a metaphor for trying to be two opposites at the same time.

Brian

[Mark Simpson 1Participant @marksimpson1]

I rather like a definition of "a bodge" which appears on Traction Talk from time to time….
Bit Of Damn Good Engineering….

Bodge is also the name of our dog

[nigel jones 5Participant @nigeljones5]

to let the cat out the bag originates from medieval england a; very long time before the punishment tool, and indeed refers to the cat in a bag instead of the pig you just bought – in addition there is also the phrase "bought a pig in a poke" which is the same event. A poke is another olde name for a bag, hence beware buying a pig in a bag! I prefer mine in a freezer!

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Perhaps what happened with "Fast and Loose" and "Let the Cat Out of the Bag" is that someone reused them as a joke. I can well imagine a 19th century humorist realising that Shakespeare could be applied to a belt drive system. Likewise, a sailor spotting a parallel for Cat in a Bag, perhaps he also came up with "not enough room to swing a cat", ho ho.

Wireless pioneers adapted Broadcasting to describe what they were doing with voice radio: the word originally refers to farmers chucking their seed about…

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by Clive Haynes on 29/05/2016 12:50:47:

Call me old fashioned but I still use the fag paper for finding the edge. I've got a wobbler but never use it, just the tool that's in the collet at the time. Worked for me over the years.

Clive

I still keep a pack of rizler's in my toolbox

Michael W

[John ReeseParticipant @johnreese12848]

Posted by Ajohnw on 29/05/2016 09:35:53:

• Wobble –

• A German word first used in English in the mid 17th century. Wobble is related to wave (Old English) andwaver (Middle English) which come from Old Norse, and until the mid 19th century was generally spelledwabble. To throw a wobbly is to have a fit of temper or panic. This is a recent expression recorded only from the 1960s, first of all in New Zealand, although throw a wobbler appears in the 1930s, in a US dictionary of underworld and prison slang. Wave did not come to be used for hair until the mid 19th century and the expression to make waves dates only from the 1960s. Mexican wave describing a wavelike effect when spectators stand, raise their arms, and sit again in successive crowd sections, originated at the World Cup football competition held in Mexico City in 1986.

• John
• –

I believe I have seen the term wabbler to shafts driving the work rolls of a rolling mill. It was many years ago and my memory is failing.

[John ReeseParticipant @johnreese12848]

Posted by CuP Alloys 1 on 30/05/2016 09:21:14:

First heard 50 years ago that "Nut Screws Washer and Bolts" was a newspaper headline.

It told the story of a physcopath who entered a launderette, had sex with a customer and fled.

Oh well!

Keith

BAD

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

An automated supermarket checkout used the modern equivalent of "Cat in a Bag" / "Pig in a Poke" on me yesterday.

"Unexpected Item in the Bagging Area"

Cheers,

Dave

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

'He's lost his bottle' started (as I understand it) in Birkenhead in the Wirral, where ships are (were) scrapped using oxy-acetylene cutters. The origin was not quite the same, as is common with such expressions, rather it was 'His bottle's gone' – ie he has run out of gas.

Unless, of course, you know different … ?

Cheers, Tim

[Clive HaynesParticipant @clivehaynes74488]

I thought that was cockney slang – bottle and glass – a**e. So lost his bottle would mean brown underpants, but I could be wrong.

Clive

[John FieldingParticipant @johnfielding34086]

I thought that was cockney slang – bottle and glass – a**e. So lost his bottle would mean brown underpants, but I could be wrong.

Clive you are quite correct. As I was born and brought up in the London area Cockney rhyming slang was in everyday usage. Some others are:

Whistle and flute = suit

Apples and pears = stairs

and Porkies comes from Pork Pies = lies.

There are dozens of others which some will remember but are slipping out of common usage today as London becomes more inter-racial. In the poorer parts of London in the olden days the population consisted of a high percentage of Jewish people and their slang inter-woven with the locals made some interesting combinations!

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

Slightly off topic, this famous prose from Bernard Levin:

I don't suppose Shakespeare coined all these phrases but they are all first recorded in his works.

Rod

[John FieldingParticipant @johnfielding34086]

Hi Tim,

He's lost his bottle' started (as I understand it) in Birkenhead in the Wirral, where ships are (were) scrapped using oxy-acetylene cutters. The origin was not quite the same, as is common with such expressions, rather it was 'His bottle's gone' – ie he has run out of gas.

You could be correct but from my experience of the Birkenhead shipyards, mostly Cammell Lairds, they did do a lot of ship repairs and building but almost no scrapping. The most used scrapyard for vessels was Inverkeithing in Rossythe in Scotland. Today the hulks get towed to India (Bombay aka Mumbai) for cutting up. My late grandfather (who died before my birth) was a plumber at Cammell Lairds during the war converting liners into troop ships.

[John FieldingParticipant @johnfielding34086]

And on the subject of old mechanical engineering terms and how they have changed over the years.

In an old textbook I have from the mid 1800s is a treatise on adjusting holes to size with a "rimmer", today that has become reamer.

The other thing that often causes confusion is the American terminology and the English for the same item.

Drill rod = silver steel/tool steel, as it is/was used for making drills and cutting tools.

Wrist Pin = Gudgeon Pin

Piston Pin = Little End Pin

Circlip = Snap Pin

And there are dozens of others.

[Author]

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