Electric vehicles

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

Ok just found some prices for Muxan they do the range extender for £5352 plus vat plus fitting and a replacement for the old battery is £8028.45 so to bring the 8 year old car back to full performance with an enhancement in Chris's case would be £13,380.28 plus 20% plus labour (if we take labour as 8 hrs at £30 an hour which is dirt cheap) gives a grand total of £16,344.34.

No idea of the value of an 8 yr old leaf but spending £16k on top of buying one to get a car that does 160 miles between charges sounds an excellent deal to me……………………….. not!

Paul.

[Jon LawesParticipant @jonlawes51698]

By putting in a deadline it forces people to think outside the box. Even if they don't achieve it there is a good chance it will accelerate the move towards these things.

Volvo had a deadline of 2020 to get to zero deaths in a Volvo car per year. I don't imagine they hit it, but isn't it fantastic that they tried?

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by Nigel Graham 2 on 22/11/2020 21:50:10:……

Even without self-employed or sub-contract traders using big vehicles, many households have more than one car, as well as visiting friends and relatives….

I foresee future society reverting to most homes being cold in Winter, the next valley may just as well be on the next continent; a trip to the nearest market-town is something of an ordeal or adventure and an exotic holiday is an annual excursion by train – and in that regressive future huge swathes of cultural and social activities we know now, will have become extinct.

Many of us are old enough to remember frost on the inside of single glazed windows, wearing vests and sweaters indoors and mum darning socks and adjusting clothes as they were handed down. Saturday was market day and shopping day. We walked a long way to the bus stop and then again at the other end to get to school. Most households only had one parent working and car ownership was rare. If you did take the car to go see a distant relative then you took a tool-kit along as well. Cities were filled with smog.

My point is that we are a horribly wasteful society. 2+ car families and exotic holidays and disposable clothing, take-aways, canned drinks.. an endless list of disposables. But has any of it made society happier? If anything society is more stressed.

Because folk didn't have access to travel all over the place on a whim they tended to know their neighbours and there was more community spirit rather than living in their isolated bubble of a home and traveling to interact. And let's face it the greater percentage of holidays involve jetting to an all-inclusive and sitting by a pool getting drunk and rutting. Or clubbing and rutting. Most holiday makers see more foreign culture in Tooting than they do in their holiday.

It's become a case of bragging rights over ever more expensive waste and the accumulation of 'stuff''

Is the hobby engineer with his lathe/mill/CNC etc actually happier than the historic hobbyist with a paraffin blowlamp, hacksaw and files? He may be more productive, he may make bits quicker and more accurately but is he happier, does he have a greater sense of accommplishment? I doubt it – it's still just a hobby and a Jason would still be better at it than me.

There's something essentially wrong in a need for both partners to work, to be so frightened they have to drive their kids to school, where everything is centralised on claimed efficiency grounds and where you have to hang on a phone for 45mins to argue errors on a utility bill with a computerised AI.

All that really matters is health and happiness. The former requires technology but the latter is independant of it.

Having raped the planet for resources and contaminated it we do need to take a step back as we did with smog.

I'm no less guilty than the next..perhaps more so since I own a lot of 'stuff'. Nor did I buy my car out of some environmetal consiousness but simply because I wanted to play with the tech. it's made me aware of the possibilities and what's around but I freely concede that EV motoring currently requires some planning, isn't cheap to buy and Tesla's prices (particularly for parts or repairs) and their customer service are disappointing.

Depreciation on new cars has always been steep and it shows up more on more expensive vehicles with finite duration just because modern electronics update so fast… the same applies to a PC or smart-phone – 8 years is ancient tech so throw it away. Remember video recorders? Tape decks?

That doesn't mean we discard advances but it does mean that it's way over time that we made things with a view to their repurposing, recycling and durability. And perhaps time that things were more expensive to make folk think twice – while still keeping an eye on health and 'happiness' Paradoxically choice makes people greedier and fussier – just look what's on offer in a supermarket and how people are manipulated to spend, spend.

I had to buy a new cooker last week since ours is beyond repair. An inbuilt oven unit delivered for £160 with basic functions and a fan – it made me think back to 40,50 years ago when something that sophisticated was uncommon and a huge percentage of a pay-cheque. I doubt this new one will last as long as the one my Mum baked in.

Society isn't fair It can't be. If you give everyone the same irrespective of ability and hard work then there's no need to bother. Not everyone has a brand new fossil car and even if they all have cars not everyone can afford to run them. The same will apply with a switch to greener motoring but it has to be done. Fairness should just be a proper safety net – health care and sustenance and shelter. And we can't even get that right.

Hopefully I trod a fine enough line here to avoid this post being removed.. but I'll understand if it is.

pgk

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

I am not sure what point you are trying to make

The point you conveniently missed is that battery refurbishment is possible now. It is in its early stages of development but may well be routine in ten/fifteen years time with cheaper, better batteries and more easily/quickly accomplished. We don’t know any facts around this person’s purchase. Was he someone who did not check out the facts, before rushing out to buy one? Did he actually buy it for “peanuts”? Was he clever or stupid less clever?

Anyone who checks out the Nissan Leaf history should know that it has no active battery temperature control. It is ‘old hat’ and past its sell by date. It was the first real attempt of a BEV. They got the battery management system wrong (and still have not corrected it now). I would not touch a Nissan Leaf with a barge pole – there are so many far better vehicles out there. I see they are now being very heavily discounted. New ones with a much larger battery pack for little over twenty grand.

That taxi in the video was deemed worthwhile to improve for its further use? It also clearly states the kit could be installed by the owner, if they so wished (and had the expertise to do it).

I’m not sure if the maths above is water-tight. Why have a replacement battery and a extra half battery to bring the performance back to normal? However in ten years time, things will change. The ‘million mile battery’ will be here as a norm? Batteries will be cheaper (in relative terms). Batteries will not use expensive metals such as Cobalt. Development continues at a pace. New vehicle costs will fall.

Here is a tip for you all. Buy one that you can normally maintain between 80% and 20% charge levels (only use the top and/or bottom 20% when particularly needed) and charge at a medium rate – neither the ultimately fast nor the ‘granny’ cable.

ICE vehicles have had 120 years to develop and improve their drive trains. Time for a change as we cannot continue to burn fossil fuels as we have since the industrial revolution began. Get real and start to change the environment for your children and their children.

Over 100 years ago treadle lathes were quite common? Who makes one now? How many petrol-driven lathes do you know of? Are Luddites still common? Have you read about the Teslas which have covered half a million miles?

The UK is a relatively small place. Most cars could be electric, even now. There are reasons why they are not, but it will change. Nearly all cars will be electric in about thirty years time. Get used to it, even if it will not directly affect you.

[Roger HartParticipant @rogerhart88496]

I think pure electric cars are a development dead end. Hybrids are a not entirely honest alternative but at least represent a development route for changing primary fuels or energy storage technologies. The real problem is the primary fuel and its replenishment.

Electric cars have been in development for almost 200 years. Improved a lot in the last 20 years, but think how much the ICE improved from nothing in 1876 to a workable car in 1886. The snag is that we don't really have the basic physics (chemistry is physics) to make a fast chargeable/big capacity/long life battery.

Even if we did the idea of pushing 350KWh + worth of power down a little cable in three minutes or so is a bit daunting let alone taking a spanner to it. The thought of mending an electric farm tractor in the middle of a wet ploughed field suggests that vehicle mechanics of the future will need to remember the 'no old bold mechanics' dictum. The alternative may be a serious risk of frostbite. What joys.

Progress is the exchange of one inconvenience for another.

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

I'm not sure how much of any modern tech you can mend in the middle of a field any more. It seems these days you start with a laptop, specific software and plug into the ODB. There;s so many cut-outs and servos and self drive nav systems that it's a lottery of luck unless it's simply hammering a bent linkage into submission. If it isnlt something conveniently simple then it's a recovery to base job or at least somewhere with a good pit and some heavy overhead lifting gear.

pgk

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

This item about hydrogen production may be of interest.

Research

[Tim HammondParticipant @timhammond72264]

"seriously, why would you buy a car with a range of just 70 miles? Beyond me" asks ChrisH.

Well, I did, because it suits my purposes. I and my wife are retired and so do not have to travel to a place of work each day and return, and so our journeys are mostly within the boundaries of the borough in which we live. Most of our friends live about two miles from us, and the local supermarket is just five miles away, so our average weekly mileage rarely exceed 30. This would crucify the engine in a petrol/diesel car, and here I speak from experience – I worked with fire engines for 20 years, where the norm is demanding maximum performance from a cold engine when responding to emergency calls, hours spent idling in the drill yard, and pootling around locally on "risk visits". I've seen steps in the cylinder bores of Bedford engines that you'd need a step-ladder to get across and this at 20,000 miles. With my Leaf I don't have to buy hydrocarbon fuel with its exorbitant tax burden, just plug it into a 13A socket outlet every so often, the vehicle attracts 0% vehicle excise duty, a 3kW heater beneath the bonnet is available instantly without waiting for an engine to warm up, the lack of noise when travelling along is wonderful and the vehicle as a car is roomy, comfortable and well-built to Japanese standards. What's not to like?

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 23/11/2020 16:57:33

[Steve Skelton 1Participant @steveskelton1]

Not sure if this is possible, but at least they are being realistic about the time frame – in the next 30 years. Have to assume it would be fail-safe or the potential disaster does not bear thinking about.

https://asf.imeche.org/news/news-article/space-based-solar-power-station-could-beam-energy-down-to-uk?utm_campaign=2038923_TP_PE%20Weekly_20201120&utm_medium=email&utm_source=dotdigital&dm_i=3X32,17P8R,30ADMA,4CHVQ,1

Steve

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by Tim Hammond on 23/11/2020 09:12:31:

"seriously, why would you buy a car with a range of just 70 miles? Beyond me" asks NDIY.

Well, I did, because it suits my purposes.

…

Really? Did I say that? I think you need to retract your accusation – and politely request you it as an apology, as I most certainly did not write that. I don’t like it when people misquote me, or simply make things up.

[ChrisHParticipant @chrish]

pgk pgk

Re your of 23/11 starting "Many of us are old enough to remember frost on the inside of single glazed windows"

– well said, you hit the nail right on the head there.

Chris

[Tim HammondParticipant @timhammond72264]

NDIY – I apologise unreservedly to you, I misread the post, the quote came from ChrisH on the 22nd at 1953 hrs. I really am very sorry.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Posted by ChrisH on 23/11/2020 10:24:29:

pgk pgk

Re your of 23/11 starting "Many of us are old enough to remember frost on the inside of single glazed windows"

– well said, you hit the nail right on the head there.

Chris

Hi, the frost on the inside made some very pretty patterns at times too.

With respect to two cars in one household, well I did have two cars to myself in my last few years of working, mainly because the only one I had before then, broke down and was off the road awaiting spare parts for a couple of weeks, so I bought another for work and decided to keep it, so that I had always had a car that I could use. Living out in the sticks with no public transport, I always needed a car, but of course I couldn't drive both of them at the same time, I dare say many other people will need more than one car in their household for many different legit reasons. Just to add, I've only got one now as I don't have to be anywhere except doctors appointments etc. at specific times.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 23/11/2020 11:24:21

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by Nicholas Farr on 23/11/2020 11:00:06:

With respect to two cars in one household, well I did have two cars to myself in my last few years of working,…

And I have three. No I'm not bragging. I keep my ancient 27yr 200sx out of nostalgia and have to keep remembering to use it to keep it functional. The third car is me banging my head against a brick wall called my OH. She loves the power of the Tesla but hates it's size, is scared she'll scratch it, won't dream of considerations like recharging it, wouldn't dream of using public transport or arranging a taxi and being ready on time and drives about 2K miles a year, has her shopping delivered or i have to go get it.

She goes to London twice, perhaps three times a year and therefore 'needs' her own car and pulling over out of her route to spend time recharging is an anathema even though the Tesla comes with free supercharging and the 250mile each way trip would only cost tyre wear. Hers is three months overdue for it's first year service but that's too much of a nuisance too. I mutter but tread lightly over such matters

She's obviously a very modern lady

pgk

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by Tim Hammond on 23/11/2020 10:25:42:

NDIY – I apologise unreservedly to you, I misread the post, the quote came from ChrisH on the 22nd at 1953 hrs. I really am very sorry.

Apology accepted.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by not done it yet on 23/11/2020 12:21:33:

Posted by Tim Hammond on 23/11/2020 10:25:42:

NDIY – I apologise unreservedly to you, I misread the post, the quote came from ChrisH on the 22nd at 1953 hrs. I really am very sorry.

Apology accepted.

I've edited Tim's post so it quotes the right forum member.

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

Posted by not done it yet on 23/11/2020 07:22:06:

I am not sure what point you are trying to make

The point you conveniently missed is that battery refurbishment is possible now. It is in its early stages of development but may well be routine in ten/fifteen years time with cheaper, better batteries and more easily/quickly accomplished. We don’t know any facts around this person’s purchase. Was he someone who did not check out the facts, before rushing out to buy one? Did he actually buy it for “peanuts”? Was he clever or stupid less clever?

Anyone who checks out the Nissan Leaf history should know that it has no active battery temperature control. It is ‘old hat’ and past its sell by date. It was the first real attempt of a BEV. They got the battery management system wrong (and still have not corrected it now). I would not touch a Nissan Leaf with a barge pole – there are so many far better vehicles out there. I see they are now being very heavily discounted. New ones with a much larger battery pack for little over twenty grand.

That taxi in the video was deemed worthwhile to improve for its further use? It also clearly states the kit could be installed by the owner, if they so wished (and had the expertise to do it).

I’m not sure if the maths above is water-tight. Why have a replacement battery and a extra half battery to bring the performance back to normal? However in ten years time, things will change. The ‘million mile battery’ will be here as a norm? Batteries will be cheaper (in relative terms). Batteries will not use expensive metals such as Cobalt. Development continues at a pace. New vehicle costs will fall.

Here is a tip for you all. Buy one that you can normally maintain between 80% and 20% charge levels (only use the top and/or bottom 20% when particularly needed) and charge at a medium rate – neither the ultimately fast nor the ‘granny’ cable.

ICE vehicles have had 120 years to develop and improve their drive trains. Time for a change as we cannot continue to burn fossil fuels as we have since the industrial revolution began. Get real and start to change the environment for your children and their children.

Over 100 years ago treadle lathes were quite common? Who makes one now? How many petrol-driven lathes do you know of? Are Luddites still common? Have you read about the Teslas which have covered half a million miles?

The UK is a relatively small place. Most cars could be electric, even now. There are reasons why they are not, but it will change. Nearly all cars will be electric in about thirty years time. Get used to it, even if it will not directly affect you.

Small wonder "I conveniently missed it" as your elaboration that battery refurbishment is available now didn't appear to be specifically mentioned in the original quote and the point being made by the previous poster was not the potential of being able to get a replacement or even a refurbished battery – but the cost.

"Look at this video. But do remember that battery repairs/replacement/improvement/prices/etc will change as BEVs become more widespread."

In fact "battery" recycling by the likes of Corvus is well underway already outside the automotive industry where batteries are refurbished by replacing defective cells and the refurbished units re-deployed to less arduous duty cycles than their first application – good business for them as they essentially get to sell the same 'battery' twice!

Something you appear to be missing when you are telling all to "get used to it" is the majority of responses on this thread acknowledge change is coming but are highlighting the challenges that need to be overcome in the next 10 to 15 years. Given the infrastructure changes required to support battery electric vehicles I can't fully agree with your statement "nearly all cars will be electric in about 30 years time". I can agree the method of turning the wheels may well be electric motors but in my opinion they will be mainly supported by hydrogen fuel cells and not batteries. Better power density and volume density (dependant on compression) than batteries, more convenient and most similar in refuelling as vehicles are today, less down time for refuelling but more importantly less infrastructure investment required at distribution level. Lastly to return to SOD's energy storage issue is energy is more easilly stored in a gas than as electrons in a battery and it doesn't involve child labour in mining to do it.

Paul.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Multicar ownership might perhaps be encouraged where only one is in use at a time and arranged to allow most efficient use. ie a micro car for the single occupant short trips and a family size for the weekends. A tax and insurance regime is needed to encourage this, along with a tiny car with say 20 mile range only.

FYI very roughly 25% of housholds have two cars and 25% have none with obvious town/country bias.

[Colin HeseltineParticipant @colinheseltine48622]

Bazyle – so back to the 1960's and bubble cars (Isetta, Heinkel, Messerschmitt)

I would be interested to see percentage of households having three plus cars, specially in rural/semi-rural locations. Personally I don't think multicar usage will end. The only bus which comes within mile of my home is the school bus, we last had a scheduled bus service 30 plus years ago.

If you have two offspring living at home and they both work then they are both likely to have vehicles of their own. Wife works – needs a a car, so that 3, add my three vehicle and that makes 6. Ok kids have now left home so back to 4. I can only drive one at once, so two in use regularly. I am retired and wife semi-retired, we could easily be in different parts of the country. Round trip to see daughter is 440 miles. I can do this easily in my car, 3-4hrs each way, 4 or 5 hours visit then drive home. How many electric vehicles could do this? I would not expect to have to stop on a journey of this distance.

Certainly I appreciate electric vehicles will suit some people, I have a colleague who does about 15 miles each way to his business and will be able to charge up at home or work so no problem.

Lost of people on here have mentioned the issue of installation of suitable charging infrastructure and how long this will take. Until people know that they will be able to get there vehicle charged easily whether at home or elsewhere the EV take up will be slow.

Colin

[Andrew FirmanParticipant @andrewfirman12129]

What are peoples’ views on the ability of electric cars to tow trailers and caravans? Will it be possible?

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Posted by Andrew Firman on 23/11/2020 21:23:00:

What are peoples’ views on the ability of electric cars to tow trailers and caravans? Will it be possible?

I have a friend who has a Mitsubishi Hybrid 4 x 4 who tows a caravan and a museum dispay to rally's and he says when towing the battery side goes out the window very quickly. I use a 4 x 4 to tow my trailer of engines to rallys and can tow 1.5 tons behind me, I know Tesla's can tow but how much I dont know and I doubt the batteries would last and its a totally impractical vehicle if only for the low ground clearance on fields that I attend. The other issue I would have is attending the Dorset Steam Fair for instance 155 miles for me and when I get there there is no where in a field to charge so it sits for six days nad I've then got to get home again, My 2kw generator has difficulties charging my mobility scooter batteries every day so I've no chance.

Martin P

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by Andrew Firman on 23/11/2020 21:23:00:

What are peoples’ views on the ability of electric cars to tow trailers and caravans? Will it be possible?

It has been discussed in this thread. Yes but obviously a hit on range and euro regulation means that a car can do it doesnt mean it's licensed to. Model3's come with thatoption as an example
Link is a pic of a model S towing (not in europe) Link

GENERAL

Remember that 9 years is a long time in tech. The rate of progression is such that by then a 50KWH battery on an average modest car will exceed 200 miles range in all weathers. The ID.3 with a 58KWH battery has a stated range of 263 miles (realistic will be less) and it's not the most efficient. Also by then batteries will be good for a million miles (realistically 10-15 years). Chargers will be more commonly available – certainly at all motorway services. More expensive cars will have 600 miles ranges. Topping a 50KW battery when it has 50 miles left will take 10-15 mins to get to 180 miles. Just time to pee, and enough charge for Colin to finish his journey to daughter and get back to that services for another 15 min top-up before going home.

The progression on self-drive is such that it'll be hands free on all motorways and possibly in all towns. There will be issues with single carriage way and single track roads. Anyone who doesn't believe that should look for youtube videos of the 'FSD Beta's' being tested at the moment – a way to go but quite impressive and other competitors like Mobileye are close behind but keeping their stuff closer to the vest There's even suggestions that the cars might be able to route themselves to chargers and plug themselves in.

pgk

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Even if the car could theoretically tow a trailer or caravan for more than 20 miles without flattening the battery, and even if safe to drive across ground rougher than a bowling-green, would it be provided with any way to fit a tow-bar and the trailer electrics?

I gather the motor manufacturers are developing all-electric utility vehicles that would presumably be better for towing than the Mitsubishi Hybrid, but the retail costs would probably be out of reach for many private owners.

The obvious thing I expect the rosy-glasses brigade would suggest, a propo attending large events miles from home, is re-charge the vehicle at the nearest point to the destination, on arriving. Along with the other dozens of motorists trying to do the same thing at about 20 minutes a time at least, from the very few compatible charging-points in the area. Hard luck on the locals, too – they will not want that situation.

I think when this battery-only policy really bites, it will be the death-knell for almost all big out-of-town cultural and sporting events; even if they are still legal then anyway. Many in towns too, by the inherent transport difficulty. Think of the numbers of cars at the urban venues for our big exhibitions and the rural settings of rallies; and consider this is similar for so many other interests too. Yes, visitors could arrive at most exhibition-centres by public transport and many do, but at rural venues with no bus-stops within miles; and exhibitors to both?

When I told an American on another forum of the battery-only policy, he asked me if there will be a surge of sales of petrol and diesel cars in the last few years, and those cars being kept very carefully maintained for as long as possible. I replied I have no idea but it's an interesting point!

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Martin

Your wouldn't try to do that with a ford fiesta either.
There's kit in design that;s more than capable. Rivian RT1 is stated to come out 2022 with 400 mile range and towing capacity of 4 tons. The cybertruck is due out next year and add Nikola's Badger, Bollinger's B2, Lordstown Motor's Endurance, Ford's electric F-150, GMC's Hummer EV to the list of concept stuff due… mostly US where the pick-up rules. 9yrs time and you'll have plenty of choice.

pgk

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Yes but think of all the extra battery's you can get in a caravan. I thought you lot were engineers.

regards Martin

[Author]

Posts