Dishwasher detergents

[NealebParticipant @nealeb]

A large proportion of the mince pies eaten in the UK at Christmas come from the Mr Kipling factory in Hampshire. In fact, they have probably already started making them, as they get shipped to enormous cold stores around the country to await the Christmas season. About October, usually…

However, although Mr Kipling makes mince pies for a number of brands, in-store own brands and so on, they are actually made to different recipes. Economy of scale in that the "making" equipment is well-used that way, but that doesn't mean that you can't use a bit more or a bit less of various ingredients, or add/remove some of them according to taste/preference/price point. Taking a look at the stacks waiting for loading and distribution and seeing various brand labels doesn't mean that they are the same inside.

I have bought an unbranded component for an Audi (rear screen wiper motor) which claimed to come from the same factory as the originals. Although it arrived in a non-Audi box, it was pretty much identical to the original (barring a small improvement or two which was also true of the current Audi replacement) – but about 70% the price.

Problem is – how do you tell? Same factory could mean different product, or same product/different brand, or possibly something altogether inferior. Tricky one!

[Old ElanParticipant @oldelan]

Posted by martin perman on 30/03/2019 15:04:57:

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 30/03/2019 10:44:02:

Today, the link between brand-names and quality is mostly broken for almost all manufactured items. Most small cars are similar, however they are badged.

I think it was the Jaguar X type which was a complete Modeo with a different body fitted.

Martin P

Ah, that old chestnut!

Have a look at this. https://www.aronline.co.uk/cars/jaguar/x-type/

I admit to being biased as I have had two as well as a Mondeo. Front brakes and cylinder block seem to be about the only things interchangeable.

Thanks for the link to the EWG site. Interesting. We now use Powerball as we have found it very difficult to find our preferred powder, which has been pointed out, can be used in different doses to suite conditions.

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

In respect of dishwasher tabs they are all quite corrosive of aluminium, they will also cause rusting and pitting of certain grades of stainless steel, for instance cooks knives, it seems that the chemical concentrations are strong enough to destroy the protective oxide layer on certain stainless steels. You just have to be aware which items that you can put in the dishwasher.

in respect of perceived quality of brands, 50 odd years ago the wife worked evening shifts in a food production factory, they produced among other things a range of meat pies for different customers, M & S were a big customer of theirs. The recipe for their products was different from the standard range and their quality control within the factory was very stringent, the pastry after cooking was checked and any not of the required colour were rejected, it may have been only a slight shade difference but it would be rejected. This stringent quality control had an unexpected bonus because visual rejects were sold off at a substantial discount to members of staff, I got to quite like M & S products as a consequence.

Dave W

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Posted by Old Elan on 31/03/2019 11:55:53:

Posted by martin perman on 30/03/2019 15:04:57:

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 30/03/2019 10:44:02:

Today, the link between brand-names and quality is mostly broken for almost all manufactured items. Most small cars are similar, however they are badged.

I think it was the Jaguar X type which was a complete Modeo with a different body fitted.

Martin P

Ah, that old chestnut!

Have a look at this. https://www.aronline.co.uk/cars/jaguar/x-type/

I admit to being biased as I have had two as well as a Mondeo. Front brakes and cylinder block seem to be about the only things interchangeable.

Thanks for the link to the EWG site. Interesting. We now use Powerball as we have found it very difficult to find our preferred powder, which has been pointed out, can be used in different doses to suite conditions.

All I can say is that when working with robots we had them opening and closing doors, boot lids and bonnets for long term operation on the X type and the engineers told us that the floor pan and running gear were Mondeo.

Martin P

[Robin GrahamParticipant @robingraham42208]

Returning to dishwasher tabs – Paul's link to the composition of the Powerballs suggests that there isn't really anything in there to justify the massive price differential. It's a con! I'm in a soft water area though, so maybe that's why I can't see the difference in performance.

Why is salt (NaCl) important? I'd assumed that the dishwasher has an ion-exchange water softener somewhere in there , I can understand that, but then I came across This

Dishwasher salt is used with a ionic exchange softener unit built into your dishwasher (if this is not in place there will still be an ionic reaction with the calcium which limits the amount of lime scale that will be built up).

I'm foxed as to what that 'ionic reaction' might be. I suspect it might be nonsense, but maybe I'm wrong!

Robin.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Considering how much stuff I can put in my dishwasher and have it come out spotlessly clean the price of a tab of whatever flavour seems a pretty good deal. The premium tabs are regularly on offer so it’s not too painful to buy them. 20p to not be a skivey and get on with something I enjoy is good value I feel, of course if cheaper tabs can deliver then its happy days.

Mike

[John MCParticipant @johnmc39344]

I once ran out of hand cleaner. Needing to wash my hands after fixing something oily on the car I thought a splash of dish washer fluid would do the trick. Soon found out that was a mistake……

John

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 30/03/2019 23:31:00:

Just make sure they have built in salt and rinse aid. Some very cheap ones are just detergent.

Most, if not all dishwashers have a built in water softener and do a rinse cycle after the wash. The water softener needs salt to regenerate the ion exchange resin. Salt in the tablet will not do that. Rince aid ( a non foaming detergent ) is dispensed at the end of the cycle to aid drying. Again I doubt if putting it in the tablet will help.

I may just be a sceptic but I suggest that 4 in one or 5 in one tablets are just a marketing gimmick.

As an aside, a few drops of rince aid in water works wonders in the ultrasonic cleaner.

Russell

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Old Elan on 31/03/2019 11:55:53:

Posted by martin perman on 30/03/2019 15:04:57:

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 30/03/2019 10:44:02:

Today, the link between brand-names and quality is mostly broken for almost all manufactured items. Most small cars are similar, however they are badged.

I think it was the Jaguar X type which was a complete Modeo with a different body fitted.

Martin P

Ah, that old chestnut!

Have a look at this. https://www.aronline.co.uk/cars/jaguar/x-type/

I admit to being biased as I have had two as well as a Mondeo. Front brakes and cylinder block seem to be about the only things interchangeable.

Thanks for the link to the EWG site. Interesting. We now use Powerball as we have found it very difficult to find our preferred powder, which has been pointed out, can be used in different doses to suite conditions.

As an X-type owner, the actual figure is about 45%, representing mostly the engine and floor pan. Having had a Mondeo diesel of the same age the actual driving experience is very different, with the X-Type having a much tighter 'gripping the road' feel.

Irony is that the Mondeo was the Ghia and equipped with vastly more tricks and gadgets, not to mention a lovely 6-speed box!

Neil

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Russell Eberhardt on 01/04/2019 09:16:46:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 30/03/2019 23:31:00:

Just make sure they have built in salt and rinse aid. Some very cheap ones are just detergent.

Most, if not all dishwashers have a built in water softener and do a rinse cycle after the wash. The water softener needs salt to regenerate the ion exchange resin. Salt in the tablet will not do that. Rince aid ( a non foaming detergent ) is dispensed at the end of the cycle to aid drying. Again I doubt if putting it in the tablet will help.

I may just be a sceptic but I suggest that 4 in one or 5 in one tablets are just a marketing gimmick.

As an aside, a few drops of rince aid in water works wonders in the ultrasonic cleaner.

Russell

While I agree it is best to still use dishwasher salt, if I use cheap tabs in our dishwasher I get very poor results unless I use rinse aid and salt. With 5 in 1 tabs I can get away without using anything else. This is solid experience not advertising or a hunch.

Neil

[Robin GrahamParticipant @robingraham42208]

I think my initial question has been answered – as cheap tabs work for me I shouldn't worry too much about about the possible benefits of the exotic additives in the pricier ones. I'm in a soft water water region though – Staffordshire water is much harder, which is good for brewing, but perhaps less good for dishwashing, so maybe that's the 5 in 1's are a cost effective choice there. Empirical evidence always leads useful theory!

I can't understand what salt does in the tabs, but shall think on't – I was a chemist in a previous life, so can't help wondering..

Robin.

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