Crap vee blocks and “Oxford Precision”?

[larry PhelanParticipant @larryphelan54019]

Someone remarked about the chisels and screwdrivers of 30 years ago. I can relate to that ! I still have some chisels which belonged to my father [I,m now 78 ] The steel in those chisels could take an edge like a razor,and hold it. What about the crap on offer today,from well known brand names? The less said about it,the better. You cannot get a sharp edge on them no matter how hard you try. Plane irons are no better,so it,s not all wishful thinking about the old days. Yes,there was some junk,but if you bought a good brand name,you were fairly safe,alas,no longer. Some of the replacement tools I bought with well known names are nothing short of rubbish,I could buy just as good in ALDI for half the price,and have done.

Good products will always have a market but perhaps not big enough to satisfy the makers,so they start making junk,then they go bust.

Someone else remarked on the quality and finish on some of the machines on sale, tell me about it ! The cast iron used in some of these machines is little better than sand [try drilling it ],and the quality of the machine screws used is beond words. I had to replace most of them on my lathe.

Sad to say,that seems to be the way things are going,it seems to be a case of "Buy them,use them,dump them "

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

if you want a piece of kit made to an accuracy of .0005"/.0002" etc. & know how to check it & use it in a meaningful way I'm sure it is available at a cost, the phrase 'precision' means bugger all.

Tony

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by Tony Pratt 1 on 27/06/2017 17:04:02:

if you want a piece of kit made to an accuracy of .0005"/.0002" etc. & know how to check it & use it in a meaningful way I'm sure it is available at a cost, the phrase 'precision' means bugger all.

Tony

The word 'precision' is probably used more than eBay than 'barn find'!

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Can we work out in which decade exactly the best tools and materials were available? Chris suggests 1987.

Trouble is, looking at Model Engineer for 1987 you find many denunciations of the poor quality. In 1987, chaps thought quality had gone down the drain since the Fifties. That would be OK except, you've guessed it, ME's Post Bag in 1957 has people complaining that quality hasn't been any good since before the second war. And, looking at what chaps said in the 1920's one finds strong opinion that quality pretty much disappeared before the Great War

Switching from ME to 'Engineer' on Graces Guide, it's not all that difficult to find exactly the same story going back deep into the 19th century. For boiler making Electrolytic copper is inferior to smelted copper because smelted copper has Gold in it, yeah right. Mild steel is cheap rubbish compared with Wrought Iron. Modern iron plate (in 1880) 'shatters like glass' compared with the wonderful stuff used to build ships in the 1850's. Well before Bessemer and Siemens, Wrought Iron was rubbish compared with cast iron. And before that, iron was inferior to Brass. Throughout the years, nothing lasts like it used to.

Judging by published contemporary accounts there's strong evidence is that tools and materials have been going steadily downhill since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution. Even nostalgia ain't what it used to be. This well documented perception of decline cannot be true. If it were, our houses would be lit by tallow dips, water would come from a well, we would share a Necessary House with the neighbours, and we would walk to the workhouse to have limbs amputated.

There is one thing that was much better 30 years ago. You and I. I think feeling that the world is falling apart is mostly due to ageing. As we start to fall apart, we naturally remember happier days. It wasn't the tools, politics, jobs and entertainments that were better in our youth, it was us.

Dave

 

 

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 27/06/2017 17:27:39

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I've had a brainwave.

Look out for Stub Mandrel(TM) CCFC inserts coming your way soon. (CF stands for chipped flint).

Neil

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 27/06/2017 18:35:35:

I've had a brainwave.

Look out for Stub Mandrel(TM) CCFC inserts coming your way soon. (CF stands for chipped flint).

Neil

I thought they were OEM on the Adept

Are chipped flint inserts knapped flint ones that you have broken the cutting edge off of?

Edited By JasonB on 27/06/2017 18:44:25

[larry PhelanParticipant @larryphelan54019]

Oh hear ye the words of wisdom from he who calls himself "Silly old duffer",friend Dave ! How right you are.

It,s no secret that the quality of tools has declined over the years,but so has the price. I remember looking in Woolworts stores in the 1950,s [anyone still remember them ? ] A 1/4 " electric drill cost £3,my wages at the time was £2,1&6.,so it was no-go. Young people today have a lot more choice,and at a far more attractive price.The stuff may not be as good,but at least they can get a start and then move up to better quality,if they can find it.

Would I go back to the days of the hacksaw and the hand file and leave aside my good old band saw and my cheap angle grinder,I dont think so ! I,ve been there,done that,bought the tee shirt.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by JasonB on 27/06/2017 18:38:48:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 27/06/2017 18:35:35:

I've had a brainwave.

Look out for Stub Mandrel(TM) CCFC inserts coming your way soon. (CF stands for chipped flint).

Neil

I thought they were OEM on the Adept

Are chipped flint inserts knapped flint ones that you have broken the cutting edge off of?

Edited By JasonB on 27/06/2017 18:44:25

Knapped is too advanced a technology. Chipped bits off teh ground will be much better.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

The decline in the quality of sexy ladies on the silver screen is well known too. Two-ton Tessie O'Shea may have been hot stuff when I were a lad but she couldn't hold a candle to that Theda Bara, woof woof…

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

Back to the 'good old days'.

Televisions that needed to warm up for ages then the picture rolled and needed twiddling of knobs or a whack on a known spot on the case to stop, oh yes and a choice of two or three channels.

Radios that whistled and squawked at you, and could drift off tune for no apparent reason.

Repairs to the above technologies were usually expensive and fairly frequent.

Torch Batteries that lasted about halfway home from school in winter.

Cheap toys with weak springs.

Masonary 'drills' you whacked with a club hammer whilst turning by hand, then had to regrind the burrs from end you were hitting after a few holes.

Rewirable fuses that somebody had invariably put thicker wire into which stopped them blowing (no fused plugs), until something further down the line 'popped' instead.

Let's not forget that there was still plenty of poor quaity equipment about as well, as my Grandfather (who died in the 1960s) frequently said "always remember you don't get out for nowt lad".

Enough of this rant, ye gods I really am getting old!

Edited By V8Eng on 28/06/2017 00:00:57

[choochoo_balooParticipant @choochoo_baloo]

I am pleased that this thread has generated a varied input on the pertinent matter of basic tooling/accessory quality.

Sort of on topic; does anyone else dabble in amateur astronomy? Now that is definitely a hobby where the bang per buck (even since the 1990s) really has sky rocketed – pardon the pun! For a modest outlay once can now take images that rival some of the famous Hubble images from a back garden. What is there not to love about physics??!!

I suppose I struggle to shake off prejudice against unbranded tooling, stemming from the couple of times I've given it the benefit of the doubt in the past. Both times I wished I hadn't bothered. Though I do look forward to getting acquainted with Arc's products in due course.

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

Posted by larry Phelan on 27/06/2017 16:59:40:

Someone remarked about the chisels and screwdrivers of 30 years ago. I can relate to that ! I still have some chisels which belonged to my father [I,m now 78 ] The steel in those chisels could take an edge like a razor,and hold it. What about the crap on offer today,from well known brand names? The less said about it,the better. You cannot get a sharp edge on them no matter how hard you try. Plane irons are no better,so it,s not all wishful thinking about the old days. Yes,there was some junk,but if you bought a good brand name,you were fairly safe,alas,no longer. Some of the replacement tools I bought with well known names are nothing short of rubbish,I could buy just as good in ALDI for half the price,and have done.

Good products will always have a market but perhaps not big enough to satisfy the makers,so they start making junk,then they go bust.

Someone else remarked on the quality and finish on some of the machines on sale, tell me about it ! The cast iron used in some of these machines is little better than sand [try drilling it ],and the quality of the machine screws used is beond words. I had to replace most of them on my lathe.

Sad to say,that seems to be the way things are going,it seems to be a case of "Buy them,use them,dump them "

That was me on both points but my stalker was first to mock.

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 27/06/2017 17:26:52:

Can we work out in which decade exactly the best tools and materials were available? Chris suggests 1987.

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 27/06/2017 17:27:39

No, that's not what I said. The decline started about 30 years ago.

 

Edited By Chris Trice on 28/06/2017 01:37:28

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by Ketan Swali on 27/06/2017 16:20:25:

Had the internet and the forums been around 30 years ago, perhaps things would have been more transparent.

Ketan at ARC.

I agree but I think you have the timescale wrong. I was using newsgroups on Usenet 30 years or more ago.

There have always been c**p tools around. I remember buying a British screwdriver from Woolworths which turned into a corkscrew on first use.

Russell

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Russell Eberhardt on 28/06/2017 10:42:06:

Posted by Ketan Swali on 27/06/2017 16:20:25:

Had the internet and the forums been around 30 years ago, perhaps things would have been more transparent.

Ketan at ARC.

I agree but I think you have the timescale wrong. I was using newsgroups on Usenet 30 years or more ago.

There have always been c**p tools around. I remember buying a British screwdriver from Woolworths which turned into a corkscrew on first use.

Russell

I had just moved onto an Amstrad1512 from a Commodore Vic-20 in 1986/87, and was still on a knowledge of discovery with how to use a modem that year. Couldn't afford a telex machine so had to go to a telex bureau near Wembley Stadium to pick-up my telexes. So you were lucky to be using newsgroups on Usenet.

Ketan at ARC.

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

I've still got some of my dad's tools bought from a chain of stores called "Texas" anyone remember that?

Michael W

[richardandtracyParticipant @richardandtracy]

IIRC it led to a terminal (for the company) joke called 'The Texas Chain Store Massacre'. If they were financially shaky it could have led to the company going bust.

Regards,

Richard.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Michael-w on 28/06/2017 12:54:25:

I've still got some of my dad's tools bought from a chain of stores called "Texas" anyone remember that?

Michael W

I think it was bought out by Sainsburys Homebase.

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by Ketan Swali on 28/06/2017 13:20:10:

Posted by Michael-w on 28/06/2017 12:54:25:

I've still got some of my dad's tools bought from a chain of stores called "Texas" anyone remember that?

Michael W

I think it was bought out by Sainsburys Homebase.

Gave me a chuckle, thanks

Michael W

[Ian Skeldon 2Participant @ianskeldon2]

I am a bit like you choochoo_baloo, I don't make anything for a living or for a profit as such, my current engineering projects are all for my own interests, in the last twelve months I have bought a new Chester Lathe that I am very pleased with, not as sturdy or heavy as the ward's or the old herbet's but they wouldn't meet my requirements now anyway as I have a small workshop not a factory floor. I have been lucky enough to get excellent advice and help from a well known model engineering forum and have bought mainly from Arc, also from Chronos and possibly RDG, all of the stuff I have bought has been as good (or bad) as it was described.

The only item I bought from ebay was a Myford mill, luckily it rune very sweet and pretty damn true and has made me glad I did buy it, but I did have concerns until I got it home and installed. In a nutshell I think the advice given on here could be summed up as buy from the well known and respected sources who would deal with any issues you should have and thus remove the risk element of buying tooling.

ATB,

Ian

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

I am not sure there ever was a golden age for tools. I have some of my fathers kit and I have also purchased old chisels and planes. Some of these items are extremely good. I have planes from the 30's that will sharpen up and keep their edge far better than some of the more modern, recognised, good plane. Chisels are a bit hit and miss from this period, ranging from superb to mediocre. I have some Bahco chisels that are 15 years old and every bit as good as anything I have pre war.

"As ever the poor are always with us" to misuse a phrase. I am sure that if you are prepared to pay the price then you can get as good a tool these days as you ever could in bygone times! It is simply that people have become used to cheap imports and are just not prepared to pay the very high price that is required for top quality.

Andrew.

P.S. you can probably get better tools these days than ever before. Modern metallurgy is simply streets ahead of yore! But will you pay the price?

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Posted by Michael-w on 28/06/2017 12:54:25:

I've still got some of my dad's tools bought from a chain of stores called "Texas" anyone remember that?

Michael W

Hi,

Yes, they did become Sainsbury's Homebase. Oh! and I remember the Texas Tom advert.

As far as two V blocks being a pair, I'll doubt that you'll find that they are exactly the same on all their dimensions, or truly accurate to each other, although they should be reasonably close. Like anything, the closer you want them to perfect, the more you will have to pay and the price will not be on a linier scale.

With respect to branding, you should not assume the brand name on products are always made by that company. In my day job, we have made tooling for one or two high end companies, that we have no connection with other than customers.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 29/06/2017 03:28:06

[Chris Evans 6Participant @chrisevans6]

One comment from Ian above echo's my thoughts. " I have bought mainly from ARC/Chronos and possibly RDG" It is a case of use them or lose them, if to many people bypass these companies and buy from internet sources the UK based supplier will not be here. Many people would not be using workshop machinery and tools if there like's where not around.

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by Ketan Swali on 28/06/2017 11:58:55:

I had just moved onto an Amstrad1512 from a Commodore Vic-20 in 1986/87, and was still on a knowledge of discovery with how to use a modem that year. Couldn't afford a telex machine so had to go to a telex bureau near Wembley Stadium to pick-up my telexes. So you were lucky to be using newsgroups on Usenet.

Ketan at ARC.

Yep, Amstrad PC 1512 was my first home computer! Those were the days .

[MalcBParticipant @malcb52554]

Theres a lot of truth in the old saying:

Easy buying cheap tools cheap but buying quality tools cheap is a "science".

I am with Chris Evan6 on his comments in that buying far eastern tools from UK suppliers is the way to go. Taking a chance on import duties and Quality by buying direct, just to save a few quid is dodgy to say the least. Price to return anything is a none starter.

I am pretty sure that the UK suppliers such as Chronos, ARC, RDG, Amadeal, Warco, Chester, ( to name just a few of the more known ones) do in fact carry full QA assessments on their suppliers before putting them on their approved supplier lists.

I know the OP made reference to ARC, but I dont think I read that in any sort of derogatory way, in fact like others, the stuff i have had from them has been spot on for me, in fact comparing to many others i have used both in industry and home, have to say they are up there in the top quartile.

In fact the only real problem i have had in the last 2 or 3 yrs or so were some backing plate raw castings that although looked visually perfect revealed large blow holes ln an important area when machining. These were from RDG being local to me. No problem returning for replacement, just lost time ( but who hadnt experienced this in industry ). No quible and easy. Direct from Asia I would have had to write off.

[Author]

Posts