Confused about lathe.

[coggyParticipant @coggy]

I'm a complete beginner when it comes to metal working with a lathe, it wasn't even done at my school so apart from a couple of goes (under instruction) at reducing washers on a friends basic old lathe I have little experience of a metal lathe.

Using a wood lathe is second nature to me but apart from common safety aspects and the names of certain parts of the lathe the two seem to be two separate disciplines.

For many years I've been a keen restorer of classic cars, stationary engines and tractors and have worked metal in many ways except turning it. I have wanted to learn this skill for years and decided to take the plunge and buy a lathe.

I've been reading about the subject for a couple of years, talked to people and looked at the internet and have learnt some interesting things but all this information I have gathered has only confused me as to which lathe to get. I know it has been asked many times before on here and some of the replies have proved useful but I'm still needing some expert guidance so yet again I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask the question which lathe.

This is going to be a one off purchase, I doubt very much I'll have the money to purchase another lathe again in the future so I want to get it right in terms of value for money, machine reliability, good customer service and easy of getting those add on extras later, ability to learn on the lathe but also have the scope to carry out work once experienced without having to buy another bigger lathe.

A few facts I've learned, and please correct me if you think different, is this. With not having knowledge of metal lathes I'd be better off buying new as used is to bigger risk and with my budget of £1500 could push to £2000ish for right lathe I'm looking at good quality foreign machines.

Space wise, I'm looking to fit within 1.3m length wise, run on 240V mains, Making my own bench, not a problem, to sit it on as I'd sooner put stand money into the lathe and I'd need get all the basic extras and tooling within the budget.

I have ruled out lathe/mill combos, I have a decent floor standing pillar drill with cross vice and would later look at getting a milling machine but I'd like to be able to do some basic milling on the lathe to start with but tooling for that side of things can be bought later.

The main use would be for learning on, tool making, making parts for cars/tractors etc., thread cutting metric and imperial ability a must and maybe some model making in the future.

I think I'm right in going for the largest centre height and distance between centres I can get but I don't want to sacrifice machine quality for it.

I think power cross feed would be better. A thread dial indicator is a must have. Metal gears is a must.

I'm unsure about DRO, what are the advantages of it and I'm unsure about the advantage of inverter drive.

The lathes I'm currently looking at are Warco as they seem to come with a good selection of accessories, seem to have good customer service and test and set up the lathe before sending, which I think would be a good advantage to a beginner. I was thinking maybe the WM 250V Lathe Inverter Drive Variable Speed **LINK** or would the DRO model **LINK** be worth the extra money or would the WM 280V Lathe Inverter Drive Variable Speed **LINK**be a good choice with the extra distance between centres but I'm unsure I'd need a centre distance that big.

I also looked at the Amadeal AMA250AVF-750 Lathe (10×30) Variable Speed – Power Crossfeed **LINK** but I'm put off by poor customer service reputation a friend experienced with them.

I'm not sure about whether any of the above have all metal or plastic gears. Does anyone have these machines what are they like and is it plastic or metal geared ?

Sorry to go on for so long but I tried to give all the information I thought relevant. So can anyone offer their experienced opinion on this or know of a better lathe to suit my needs, am I on the right track or have I just been spouting rubbish ?

Any help will be very muc

[coggyParticipant @coggy]

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Unlike the smaller "mini-lathes" the 250 and 280 don't have any gears in the main drive train to the spindle, they use belt(s) and pullies and use the electronocs to alter the speed. For feeds and screwcutting they have changable metal gears and an all metal gearbox for direction and limited speed/pitch changes.

I've had a WM280VF for 12years and still going strong.

[Thor 🇳🇴Participant @thor]

Hi Coggy,

Welcome to the forum. I have a 290 lathe – almost the same as the WM 280 you mentioned, I am pleased with my lathe. The gears on my 290 are all cast iron. The 280/290 lathes I have seen have power cross-feed from a separate shaft.
What lathe you should buy depends on what you you want to make, you can manage to do small work on a larger lathe, so if you want to make parts for larger engines etc. get a larger lathe.

Thor

[Ian Skeldon 2Participant @ianskeldon2]

Hi Coggy,

Welcome to one of the most friendly and useful forums on the web.

I share your view that buying used can be a big mistake if you don't know what to look for or even worse if you are unable to make a couple of test cuts to check parallelism (sorry if I just made that word up?) and surface finish. A good used lathe should be able to easily and quickly demonstrate both. So an imported new lathe sounds very feasible.

My DB10 is pretty good (now) but is not capable of cutting very accurate imperial threads although it will cut metric ones ok. I have a powered cross feed and think I have used it once, maybe twice so I suppose you can manage without it. Any lathe that you buy will need setting up properly and maybe you could find someone near to you that would be willing to help out, just things like head alignment, adjustment of gibs, tool height etc, it all helps to get good results. Both Jason and Thor produce great results with their chinese lathes, as do many others so don't worry about horror stories from years ago.

My best advice would be to add a post saying where you live and ask if anyone on the forum lives close to you and could spare an hour or so one evening and show you around their lathe and offer ideas/advice.

[Niels AbildgaardParticipant @nielsabildgaard33719]

Mine comes from here

 

**LINK**

Transport to Denmark was ca 100£

It includes 4 jaw and steadies.

Accuracy is phenomenal both longitudinal and transverse.

 

First improvement was to make spindle flange 4 mm slimmer.Chuch change is three minutes now.

Next was a better toolholder system and the jury is still out.

Next step will be a new spindle with 28mm hole and ER40 cone instead of MC4.

Improving chineese lathes is more fun than restoring old cars and locomotives.

Edited By Niels Abildgaard on 05/12/2018 12:57:57

[JohnFParticipant @johnf59703]

Coggy, This is a little higher in price than you mentioned but it "looks good" and you can always try to negotiate a better deal ! However personally I would recommend viewing before purchase, although imported machines of eastern origin have improved dramatically over the last 30 years I still feel a really good western made machine will be better but its horses for courses and bye the best you can for your budget — there is something to be said for an imported new machine rather than a dodgy used one !

f:0&LH_ItemCondition=3000

Also consider distance from you and thus transport etc John

Here's another, needs a serious clean but the rust looks to be surface only  [close inspection needed] and once cleaned should not affect to performance — quality machine at a reasonable price IMO

f:0″>https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Myford-254-lathe-single-phase-variable-speed-REDUCED/192704482810?hash=item2cde150dfa:g:0hYAAOSwBHJbue~K:rk:1f:0

 

 

Edited By JohnF on 05/12/2018 12:59:25

[Gray62Participant @gray62]

There are quite a few on here with Warco lathes myself included. I have a gh1330 gear head lathe which is 14 years old and still going strong and a wm250v which also serves me well. Always had good service from Warco. If I was to buy now I would probably go for the 250v with dro fitted. If you are local to Warco its always worth popping in for a chat and have a look at the machines in the showroom.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Let me try to despach a few of your “musts”.

A threading dial is certainly handy – more so if you do a lot of threading – but is not strictly neeeded for thread cutting.

Many lathes are still metric or imperial, but with suitable change wheels can cut either metric or imperial threads. But most will only cut one set using the threading dial – they need to be reversed before each successive cuts to maintain position.. Not a hardship if you don’t do really long threads or a lot of them.

Which metal gears? Lots of lathes include a non-metal gear in the threading gears as it a) provides a breaking point in case of mishap and b) it helps to quieten the gear train. I fully agree with spindle driving gears, but plastic is cheap…. Also it is relatively easy to cut a few spare gears as you gain experience.

There are good secondhand lathes out there. Buying, for a beginner, can be problematic. Taking along an experienced person to inspect, before purchase, could be a far cheaper option than buying new. Personally, I would not swap my English built lathe from the 1960s for anything new and imported at double what I paid for it.

I make bits for my tractors as well. A good swing, and distance between centres, is definitely important. So is a reasonable clearance through the spindle.

[Anonymous]

I suspect that the requirement for imperial and metric threads will be your biggest stumbling block. Some import lathes will only cut a limited range of threads in their configuration, metric or imperial. As mentioned by Ian it may be impossible to cut threads in the alternative regime, or at best only with a lot of faffing about and acquisition of special gears. On the assumption that you're more likely to be cutting imperial threads for restoration projects an imperial lathe with metric capability would be best. In either configuration to get a good range of imperial and metric threads you really need to be looking at an industrial lathe with a proper gearbox. Unfortunately new that will be well outside your budget.

A wooden bench isn't really ideal, as it will move with temperature and humidity.

I have a DRO on my vertical mill, best accessory I ever bought. But I don't have one on my main lathe, and I don't feel the need for one. It's a luxury for a lathe.

My lathe has power crossfeed, and I use it almost all the time.

Ultimately I think some of your requirements are incompatible, so you need to think about what is really important and what is nice to have. Also think about the size of parts you want to machine, and what bore you'd like through the headstock.

Andrew

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

Coggy,

First off you seem to be on exactly the right track with your deliberations. BUT you ask the unanswerable question.

Why is it unanswerable? Because I have concluded over the years it's an entirely personal thing related to your experience, skill and expectations! As has already been said it's easier to do small work on a large lathe than large work on a small one. So in terms of your stated interests and aspirations your thoughts to get the largest machine you can accommodate / afford is correct. Most machines in your size range will offer the ability to cut metric and imperial threads so there shouldn't be an issue there.

Your source choices are hobby or commercial machines. Commercial, new, will be well outside your budget, hobby achievable though. Given your requirement for service / support and what you have said a new hobby machine is probably the way to go. There are a lot of good deals about on used commercial grade machines that will give you a great capability at reasonable cost if you can wait for the right one and you are able to judge condition, which from your experince level you probably can't, yet! Example I managed to pick up a Harrison L6 that had never been in a production environment and came with all the bells and whistles, 4 chucks, Burnerd multi size collet chuck and collets, fixed and travelling steadies, face plate, QC tool post and holders, 3ph on VFD for 240v etc etc for well inside your budget – but they don't come like that every day! Accessories for commercial machines (Colchester as an example) can be rare and command high prices so unless you get a used machine of this type with all the kit you may be boxing yourself into a corner.

DRO, I am a time served fitter turner and have never used a lathe with DRO and never found it a problem, for those tickly precision jobs I just stick a DTI on the slide. For a mill a DRO makes a lot more sense, but again not essential. It's once again very much a personal thing rather than a restriction of the machine.

I have 3 lathes, aforementioned Harrison, a hobbymat MD65 (brilliant little machine – too small for you though) and an ML7 (same age as me!). They are all good for various things, none good for everything. I also have access to a large Harrison with an 8' bed, an Edgewick and a Holbrook. They all have varying degrees of wear and various advantages / disadvantages for various jobs but they are all capable in the right hands.

Bottom line is you have to accept that there is not a machine out there that will tick every box. Whatever you get you will find has disadvantages in some respect, it's a case of attitude and determination to do the best you can with what you have that will make a lot more difference to your work than the colour or origin of your machine! It amuses me greatly to read some posts on here criticising the various offerings from hobby suppliers, they are what they are, produced for a non production market at reasonable prices with not as much metal in them as may be ideal for rigidity, even the worst of them can do a reasonable job if you have a bit of patience unless they are a total QC reject!

Its a big decision when you have a finite budget and want to spend it wisely and in a way that will support you into the future but with no real experience. Unfortunately the only way to know if you made the right choice for you is a few years after you do it! You will then realise why there is no single right answer.

Paul.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

You will find a lot of good advice on here.

It would pay you, if possible, to join a fairly close by Model Engineering Club. You would get a lot of advice, and probably could examine a few lathes, before you buy one.

1) Whereabouts are you?

2) What are you thinking of doing with it? No point in buying a mini lathe if you will want to skim 12" brake discs!

Tend to agree with your decision not to go for a Lathe/Mill combination. Dedicated machines will be better. But would advise most strongly against using a Pillar Drill/ Cross Vice for Milling. Drill chucks are not intended to take to side loads that End mills, Slot Drills and Slitting Saws impose! Ketan at Arc Euro says that it can be dangerous, as helical flutes will tend to pull the cutter out of the chuck.

And equally be wary of finding out that you want to put a long piece of 25mm into a machine with a 20mm bore headstock . Been there, done it. Don't want to go there ever again!

Good advice is to buy a lathe that is larger than you at first think you want. Your horizons will expand and it is frustrating to find that your machine cannot accommodate what you now (later on) want to machine.

You can do small work on a large machine, but the converse is more difficult!

You could include on your list of possible new machines the Seig SC4. It is the subject of Neil Wyatt's series on Lathework for Beginners. A friend has one. It has electronic speed control, and selection of metal back gears for screwcutting.

If you want to go bigger, there are other machines which incorporate a Norton gearbox to make selection of feeds and threadcutting easier.

You may find a secondhand machine, in good condition, (Warco BH 600 or Chester Craftsman have PCF, Norton box, Metal gears, Thread indicator, 24" centres, and 12 " swing, 18" in the gap) will give you a better value for money. It might even have Variable Frequency Drive. The saving can be spent on the tooling that you will definitely find that you want or need. (You can spend a lot on measuring equipment!)

I use the power feeds almost all the time, certainly for finishing cuts.

A machine ex College or school may be hard to find, because of the decline of metalwork classes. They will have seen little use, although some abuse!

An ex industry machine will possibly need a 3 phase supply, and will have worked hard for its living, so not suitable for you.

3) Where will you locate your workshop? Hoisting a 200Kg machine up a flight of stairs will be difficult, and will the floor stand the weight? Would the noise annoy the neighbours?

4) Make sure that your shop is well insulated, and ventilated, to avoid problems with rust, and SECURE. You do not want to find that the shop has been damaged and equipment stolen or just trashed for the sake of it.

Howard

Edited By Howard Lewis on 05/12/2018 13:10:02

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

I bought new simply because I didn't consider myself able to judge the condition of a lathe and no local advice/friends in the hobby to ask. I chose to buy from a company within practical travelling distance for reasons that i could go look at the kit before purchase and because if there were problems I could go hammer on doors and stamp my feet.

It was a self indulgent purchase just to play with but has proved handy for fixing stuff. I did get one with a DRO and while one can manage without it does make life a lot easier.

Things to consider that haven't been mentioned by others include that a new machine will likely include delivery compared to the costs of fetching or paying to have fetched a secondhand unit but size wise you also have to factor in getting the kit into your shed. With what you describe of your hobby it's likely a garage/shed directly on a driveway but some folk with workspaces at the end of lawns or dodgy trackways are going to have problems moving a heavy machine which may mean laying down lots of timbers and sheet materials or hiring stuff – all adding to costs better spent on kit.

pgk

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Just to throw a spanner in the works my 280 measures 1360mm from end cover to the tailstock handwheel when it is slid right back, also another 100mm or so is needed to take the gear cover off when messing with change wheels. If you have room at either end of your 1300mm space then it will fit as the tray is just under that.

Like Andrew I use my cross feed for just about everything except the smallest of facing or plunging cuts and being imperial I can cut most threads that I need including 14tpi. though I don't find myself doing that much thread cutting.

I've also not felt the need for a DRO on the lathe and can happily manage to work in metric or imperial, if you want one at a later date they are not too hard to fit and it will also work out cheaper fitting your own.

Edited By JasonB on 05/12/2018 14:16:07

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

Ian, an earlier post says he's in lumpy Lincolnshire so probably the wolds but there are also hilly bits like the Lincoln Edge and around Grantham.

Martin

[coggyParticipant @coggy]

Sorry I didn't put my location on the post though as Martin puts it, it is in Lumpy Lincolnshire (I like that expression), I'm always weary of putting my location on the web so lets just say south Wolds area.

The lathe would go in my existing workshop/garage, sitting at the end of the drive, concrete floor, brick walls, insulated well lit, this is where I use my woodworking machines and they survive pretty well, though I do take care of them with regular cleaning and oiling down. My dad always taught me “take care of your tools and they will take care of you”. I have an 1 ton engine crane to help with lifting.

I was going to site the lathe on an existing wooden bench built from 4”x4” timber and bolted to the wall and I was going to brace it up with welded up metal brackets made from 1 ½ angle. It doesn't move as it is and I run a planner and grinder on it currently. It is certainly far more sturdy than the clarke lathe stands I've seen, By the way I ruled out clarke lathes long ago. I have some clarke stuff from fifteen or so years ago and it has lasted but I wouldn't touch it now, seems standards have fallen.

I realise the older western machines are better, my bandsaw is older than me and I'm knocking on the door of fifty and I'm sure it will still be around when I'm long gone. But I think used lathes with me not knowing much about them and not having access to knowledgable people is to bigger risk for me, as said it is a one off, unlikely to be repeated purchase for me so new with a warranty and easily to get hold of accessories is appealing.

I mentioned my pillar drill in passing as reference to drilling holes for which I find the cross vice handy when drilling multiple holes in one piece. I'd never attempt to mill with it and I'm sorry if I gave that impression.

I wasn't accepting someone to pop up and say I need this or that lathe and I know there will always be some form of limitations to any machine. But your advice so far and a big thank-you for it has thrown up another matter for me to think about.

The case of a metric or imperial machine is one point I need some help with. Firstly are imperial machines marked out only in imperial or also metric ? I can work in Imperial but I was one of the early generations to be schooled in metric and so that is my auto reference fall back system, if you know what I mean. Having said that though most threads I deal with when restoring vehicles are imperial, Whitworth mostly and the biggest would be 1" WW. So my thread cutting will mostly be imperial but my head tends to default to metric so any stand alone item I may make would properly be metric thread, If you can understand my thinking there. So which would be better a Metric or Imperial lathe ?

Another point I'm not to sure about is bore size, How does it effect your machines usability. Most lathes I've looked at are 26mm and I wouldn't go smaller than that, Is that a good size for general use ?

[Ian Skeldon 2Participant @ianskeldon2]

Hi Coggy,

Well I am from Crewe in Cheshire so it wouldn't be very helpful in coming to see my lathe(s), although if your ever up this way your welcome to come and have a go.

From my own experiance I would say that if you intend to cut threads and you want/need to cut both metric and imperial, then make sure that what your buying comes with any change wheels etc that will enable you to do just that, in fact if you have a good idea of which machine you are likely to buy you can ask the question on this forum, there will probably be a lot of people that know what any particular machine can do.

Bore size is the maximum internal diameter of the spindle, so for instance if the bore is 26mm nothing larger than 26mm will travel through the chuck and go further than the end of the spindle.

[coggyParticipant @coggy]

"Bore size is the maximum internal diameter of the spindle, so for instance if the bore is 26mm nothing larger than 26mm will travel through the chuck and go further than the end of the spindle."

Well that's one thing I thought I knew that was right.anyway, Thanks.

I'm thinking 26mm will do me,

 

 

Edited By coggy clapsaddle on 05/12/2018 17:15:32

[Ian Skeldon 2Participant @ianskeldon2]

Well that's a start, I think somebody else mentioned that the thread gauge may not be necessary. I do cut threads from time to time and find that for me the gauge is of little use as I keep the halfnuts engaged from start til finish and use reverse, of course you may have a different view on that.

[peak4Participant @peak4]

I can't advise what to get, as it depends both on requirements and opportunity.

You seem to have a good idea of the former, but I mention the latter as you're quite reasonably hoping for a one-off total expenditure.

If the opportunity arises, within sensible travelling distance, and ideally where someone more knowledgeable can assist you, don't discount the idea of a good second hand machine.

If you've purchased it carefully, and it doesn't suit your needs when you've more experience, then you can always sell it on for about the same as you bought it.

Like a car, a new lathe will have depreciation, so selling on and replacing with something bigger/different will always have more cost implications; unlike a car, I suspect it's a more or less, one-off depreciation, rather than an increasing one.

Bill

[coggyParticipant @coggy]

Good point that Bill, I thought I'd solved the new used question but now its food for thought again. Although the

availability of accessories in the future troubles me as with cars the older they get the harder it is to get parts.

Anyone have that problem, with lathes not cars ?

Does anyone know if there companies that sell reconditioned used lahtes ?

[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

I restore stationary engines as a hobby plus a few motorcycles plus have made a lot of parts/repairs for full size steam,and tractors,and have owned lathes since 1959. For models a Boxford or a Myford are very good, for other uses eg restoration a large lathe is essential ie a Colchester otherwise you will always be running out of capacity,I currently run a Colchester Master 2500 and a Super 7 The master has 3 phase motor driven by a transwave converter no fancy electronic speed control or dros, There is a new generation who seem to need fancy electronics to do anything,a good old style lathe is all you need .on the smaller lathes to much emphasis is placed on power cross feed on a small lathe, If you cannot manage to twiddle the cross slide handle to get a good finish go do something else. Where I started work the large instrument plain lathes had manual feeds and the Boxford cross feed was never used it was easier and quicker to manually turn the handle. When buying any lathe try to find one with a lot of accessories,its better to pay a good price for a well equipped lathe than try to find accessories later .For full size restoration a Spindle bore of 1 inch dia is minimum,I find that the 1 5/8 bore on my master is still too small at times,i I do miss my Triumph 2000 with its 2 inch bore but that had to go (my age) Wear in the bed can be lived with but a worn tailstock can be an utter pain the backside,bad tapers and centre height too low.You may not have enough room for a larger lathe,suggest make your shed bigger than live with an undersize lathe.

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

In some ways it's a fairly simple choice you have limited space and a limited price + a limited weight.

Most large bench lathes are in the 300lb bracket so second hand is fine IF you can transport the weight or can phone a friend for help. 99% of commercial machines weigh in at double that weight and longer than the space you have. Lathes .co has the figures.

New machines are delivered so the weight issue goes and so cost and size are your limits.

Simply make a short list of those that fit under the limits and go and consult Google for all the moans (people love to moan) Pick the one with either the least moans or the one that don't concern you

Simples

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

The new vs second-hand debate is a tricky one. New lathes for the professional workshop are six to ten times the price of a Chinese hobby machine, and hobbyists rarely buy them. Second-hand industrial and educational lathes can be had for bargain prices but may be too big for a home workshop, or have painfully expensive faults. For several good reasons Myford lathes are popular, but this has pushed prices up – often beyond what's justified by their condition. A 70 year old lathe that's been mistreated isn't likely to be a bargain unless you know what you're doing.

In another current thread Dave Whipp is discussing his Myford refurbishment. He's doing an excellent job fixing this lathe up and he has the right attitude and the resources needed to sort out the various problems.

But it does underline the risks of buying an old second-hand lathe, especially sight-unseen or if you are a beginner.

Dave says: 'I think my P.O. has assembled my S7 from a pile of various well worn S7 and ML7 parts, slapped on a coat of regular grey house paint, plus the custard yellow, and whacked it on ebay. When I stripped the paint down from all the parts, some were grey, some were green and some parts blue. Also several bolts / screws very loose, some bolts too long for their holes in the castings.'

This is probably not what a total beginner wants of his first machine!

The advantage of buying new is a poor machine can be sent back if its condition is unacceptable. The admin may be a bloody nuisance but there is a safety net. Conversely, you have little chance of getting your money back with a disappointing privately bought second-hand lathe. The risk of buying a dud is much reduced if you know what to look for and can see the lathe running before you buy it. Trouble is a beginner doesn't know what to look for, and is liable to fret over cosmetic issues whilst missing serious faults.

In the good old days buying a lathe was a once in a lifetime purchase because they cost a large proportion of disposable income. Not so much today. Now you have the opportunity to spend a few years learning on a new Chinese lathe before looking for a better second-hand machine. Beware though, I've found my Chinese kit does all I need – warts and all – and I've not found strong reasons to upgrade it. Much depends on what you use your lathe for, which makes life difficult for a beginner who doesn't know yet. This again favours making a start with an inexpensive new machine and changing it later once you know what you're about.

Dave

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

Could I recommend a visit and chat with Chris and/or Steve at Home And Workshop Machinery? No obligation to buy but lots of advice and demonstrations of non bodged second hand machinery. They've currently got some Boxfords in which apart from the colours, are in good condition with no "disappointments" lurking for the unwary. Also a good selection of all other makes. They're in Sidcup, Kent.

[Author]

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