Chinese lathes

[EtheAv8rParticipant @etheav8r]

Posted by Anthony Salisbury on 02/01/2011 12:31:52:

………….. 

I would like Warco to increase there quality control on the build of the machines but in the end that would just increase the price of the machine to the end user and I’m sure if you asked everyone all we want is a reasonably cost machine.

 

Anyway thats only my thoughts.

Thanks

Ant 

 Yes Ant, all we want is a reasonably priced machine, that works well and accurately to it’s full potential when delivered as new from the supplier.  If that requres only better assembly line process and proceedures and QC at the point of manufacture, then the cost would not be so great, and would be perfecly acceptable, indeed welcomed, by all purchasers.  This small additional cost would be little compared to the additional time and expense of having to strip-down, clean, adjust and refit correctly post delivery – or the even bigger expense of putting right after some period of use when further wear or damage may result.

 

Additionally there is the lottery factor – some machines from the same source and of the same model are better than others, and the variability in quality and accuracy is not a gamble I was prepared to take, so I eventually moved on from considering a very reasonably priced Chinese lathe, to a quality product that I know I can rely on being ‘spot-on’ when delivered, but at an almost 4x cost increase.  However I appreciate that not all, or even many, are in a position to be able to make themselves afford such a decision, and I am indeed very fortunate in this aspect (though I am now cleaned out!).

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

Hmm…

 

I must admit, I bought a ‘returned’ mini lathe expecting issues, but aside from some missing accessories which were rapidly supplied, I had no problems aside from things like adjusting gibs.

 

But part of the deal is having a lathe I am not shy of modifying – I doubt if many people would make as many changes to a Super 7, but I have something that now has a host of little extras – even a leadscrew ‘clutch’ – and room for more in due course.

 

Neil

[Phil DParticipant @phild80296]

Hi Guys, I was looking myself at equipping a small workshop, and inevitably started looking at Chinese production. It increasingly seems pretty much whatever you buy, some if not all of it is made in China anyhow, the big question though is the end workman ship and quality. (Of cause that said I understand there are the Rolls Royce machines still made in the UK etc. but I think the investment needed for these is beyond me!)

 

I’ve bought a few odds and ends from China before (typically electronic test equipment). Some of the items have been very high quality and a fraction of western prices, but other items have been terrible, (sloppy assembly; nuts not tightened, metal shavings short-circuiting circuit boards etc..)

 

I’ve come across this Machine Manufacturer:   http://www.blinmachinery.com

Who also have more listings here: http://blinmachinery.en.made-in-china.com/product-group/RoJxYsQGIthF/Universal-Lathe-Gap-Bed-Lathe-Bench-Lathe-catalog-4.html

 

Does anyone have any experience with these guys?   They claim to have a build standard to “ISO9001: 2000, CE” but what does this mean anyhow?!

 

The prices would be very hard to beat  for example the  “BL-BL-JX6230C” has a price of $1750 so even if shipping import etc. cost the same amount again its an attractive price! I dare say i don’t expect to be making pocket watches on the thing, but my main worry would be if the quality is so bad I have to scrap it.. its an awful lot of scrap, and not the lightest of things!

 

The enticing thing is I could fit out a “nice” workshop with lathe drill and mill, and then afford a good selection of tooling,  for a fraction of the price of buying in Europe.

 

I have considered maybe starting off with a pillar drill and seeing what the quality of that is like before spending more, but I would really value your comments!

 

Phil

[Billy MillsParticipant @billymills]

Phil

Have a look around at the UK suppliers -like ArcEuroTrade, Chester, Warco, Axminster and others- the HK company is not a manufacturer but an agent, some of the machines are very well known Chinese machines by Sieg and others and very easy to get from UK suppliers. The Sieg machines are very well described on web sites the world over.

 

Also consider the invisibles, if you deal with a UK supplier then you have Trading Standards, the Sale of Goods Act and Credit Card on your side. UK suppliers will be aware of adverse publicity and don’t want to wreck their trade so try to keep their customers happy. You can always phone them up or call in person to sort out any issues and get any spares quickly and cheaply.

 

You don’t say what you want to make! I would suggest that you get a C3 lathe or an old Myford and start making stuff. If you want more then the sale price will be around what you have paid but the education value will be far greater and you will have a much clearer idea of what you need for the future. Machine tools are a bit like religion, people have differing views. You can do worse than go to a few exhibitions, join a ME club,  scan back through the posts on the Forums or enter the portals of  http://www.lathes.co.uk. Sounds like you might be another convert!

 

regards,

Alan.

 

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi Phil,

 

I agree with Alan’s comments 100% I’ve just bought a Chinese lathe from Warco which more or less fulfils your specification, it’s just a little smaller but has cross feed as well.

 

If you live in the EU, I also noted that safety equipment to comply with EU regulations (such as chuck guard, micro switch off interlocks etc) are extras to add to the basic machine. These come as part of the package from UK traders.

 

As for second hand machines, the one which is not often mentioned here is the Boxford range. There are many good examples available on the second hand market and usually come with a range of extra equipment and tooling. Once you are experienced, as Alan says such a machine will generally sell for what you paid for it as they are quite desirable.  There again you may find it so good that you don’t want to part with it. So there is nothing really to lose.  You can find more about them here.  Another benefit is that these are quality British products which have stood the test of time and many were installed in educational establishments so haven’t had the rigorous use that an industrial machine would have had.  Spares are also readily available but you probably wouldn’t ever need any.

 

In the old Boxford range, the AUD is the best equipped and the BUD is next, the only thing missing on the latter is the Norton gearbox, but it will probably come with its gear set for screwcutting.  Also worth noting is that all of the major parts are interchangeable across the range, so  a BUD could become an AUD by picking up a gearbox later if you think you need it.  having said that I have bought a Chinese lathe, I should also say that I have bought a BUD as a replacement for one lost in a recent fire.  I know which I think that I’ll be using most.  (Here is a refurbished CUD)

 

Don’t rush in to buying, have a read, do a lot more research, try to get hands on experience, but my best advice is to use UK suppliers with all the back up that is there from both the company and UK law.  A good used AUD will be available for around £1000 – £ 1400 from companies such as this (no connection) or on eBay.

 

Best regards

 

Terry

Edited By Terryd on 15/01/2011 05:20:43

[Phil DParticipant @phild80296]

Hi Alan & Terry,

 

Many thanks for the comments. I guess a bit of back ground would help perhaps! 

 

Im actually nowadays living in Norway were all is ridiculously expensive! I basically want to equip a small workshop to allow me to make various odds and ends that I need in a lab for my daily work. This is things like masks for a coating machine – ali plate faced off with square holes put in it, shafts and bearing plates for simple gear assemblies, the ability to drill and mill holes in existing equipment – SS flange & fittings for example. Its all rather simple work to be honest, with materials from plastic to SS but its the ability to do it myself can save my small work project a great deal of time money and effort, as simply there is no possibility of finding someone to do such odd jobs here in Norway. For the price of one such odd job I could have bought at least one piece of equipment! My main work is R&D so the the ability to just pop out of the lab and make a quick modification to some equipment cannot be underestimated!

 

I’ve had a bit of a hankering for a workshop for some time also, and time and finances have given me the ideal opportunity. I’ve had some experience over the years on various lathes and mills.

The lab work I do requires use of Stainless Steel parts (for vacuum use) so this has to be possible, (though I confess im not a fan of machining the stuff, so I will stick to Ali where possible!) I want flexibility in the size of what I can do so a 200x200mm workable area on the mill minimum, and to be able to turn something say 150mm diam in the extreme. Getting 3 phase electricity here can be an issue, but that was one of the attractions of that range of machines I mentioned, as you could get quite beefy machines fitted for single phase. A floor standing single phase pillar drill for example. (And I would prefer to not have to start adding inverters to my shopping list.) So I have basically been looking at machines around the limit of single phase.. about 1.5-2kW.

Buying anything in Norway is simply a non-starter, they are bought from Germany or the UK and then the price doubled. I have looked at the German / Chinese Optimum line of equipment, but that got me thinking of simply buying direct! I dont really want to buy second hand as, as someone has mentioned there is that risk of getting someone else’s cast offs that they learnt on and duly wore out! I would love to buy British, but I suspect the prices are just way out of my league.

 

My experience of any customer service in the past has generally not been good from any country. Once its out the shop then they just dont care, so  my thinking was simply if I buy direct, I may have the same troubles as if I bought through an EU reseller, but at least I could afford to do something about it!

Best regards,

Phil

[Phil DParticipant @phild80296]

P.S. So I was wishfully thikning of an out fit like this:

 

http://blinmachinery.en.made-in-china.com/product/AMFEofwPCHVl/China-Drilling-Machine-BL-BDM-5032-5040-5045-.html

 

http://blinmachinery.en.made-in-china.com/product/VbXJxZPTgBhm/China-Milling-and-Drilling-Machine-BL-MDM-CJ32FG-1-40FG-1-45FG-1-.html

http://blinmachinery.en.made-in-china.com/product/ebAQYSXKCURC/China-Bench-Lathe-BL-BL-JX6230C-.html

 

I see the point about the smaller machines obviously being Seig, any ideas who makes these bigger ones?

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

I have friend who has a mill that looks just like this one, the column is out of square at the base by around 2mm packing!!  We are going to reface the column base on the Bridgeport!

[Billy MillsParticipant @billymills]

Hi Phil,

Sounds like you are involved with vaccum deposition. Well why not directly import a small lathe and mill  from the UK ?  Spares are easy and you have the very great advantage of being able to talk directly in the native lingo with suppliers.

 

There are good reasons why larger machines are three phase!  Three phase motors are simpler, more reliable, cheaper and don’t have the starting issues with single phase.  They are also very much smoother running which translates into far better machining finish- at least an order of magnitude better. Fitting single phase to a larger machine is an act of despiration best avoided by using electronic three phase conversion.

 

Sizing a lathe is one of those life experiences in which you waste hours fretting over how large things might be one day then avoid blowing a year’s pay by an act of rational cowardice. Only you know  ( might suggest that 95% of all possible jobs may be good enough in practice) but a small and inexpensive machine makes infinitely more parts than the big dream machine you never purchase.

 

Good luck!

Regards,

Alan.

 

[Phil DParticipant @phild80296]

Yup you got me there Alan, its vacuum deposition research so there is always some bit of equipment that needs mod’ing etc!

 

I dont mind importing from the UK, but if its a cheap small mill or lathe, then chances are it came from China anyhow so does it really make such a big difference? Is the UK reseller’s mark up worth it? Nowadays I get the impression customer service is a thing for the history books!.. Now if I could buy British or even EU.. that would be a different kettle of fish entirely, and I dare say I wouldn’t mind paying more, but do any firms still make this kind of sized equipment? Not full scale industrial sized stuff, but not the tiny cheap toy stuff either!

 

Regarding lathe size, I guess I am looking for something that doesnt need me to manually change gear wheels, and has automatic traverse capabilities. (And can cope with that 95% of all jobs!!)

 

Re: KWIL’s friend… is it really that bad?! Ugh… I notice the make of the machines I was looking at is “White eagle”

 

There are better photos here: http://czjyjc.en.made-in-china.com/product/VqFxprMAHJHZ/China-Milling-and-Drilling-Machine-ZAY7045A-1-.html

 

And the actual manufacturers site here: http://www.eastchn-metalforming.com/product.asp 

 

All the best,

Phil

[dcostaParticipant @dcosta]

Hello Phil.

 

If You are interested in buying Your lathe in Europe You can try  http://www.mashstroy.bg/c_350-400_ts.html http://www.mashstroy.bg/c_350-400_ts.html.
 
I found reference to this company somewhere in the forum. Nothing connects me with the company.
 
 
I have an Optimum  BF20 milling machine and am satisfied with it.
After having it with me for 6 months it had a problem in the motor controller. The distributor  in my country (Portugal) ordered a replacement from Germany and within a wee the controller was replaced. I doubt it could be be so quick if I had bought the milling from the far east or elsewhere.

 

Best regards

Dias Costa

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

If you are only wanting to turn 150mm maximum why link to a lathe capable of turning 300mm and 4500 in the gap?

 

If you don’t fancy a lathe from China, then Wabeco, Emco, and Ceriani all offer 200-250mm lathes with a better build quality and all at least assembled in  Europe, the first two also do mills but only the Emco semi industrial would give 200×200 min movement.

 

Jason

Edited By JasonB on 15/01/2011 18:46:10

[Billy MillsParticipant @billymills]

Hi Phil,

Try http://www.klippfeld.at for lathes and mills from Austria. If I was in your shoes I would put the money for the drill into a good DRO for the mill so that you can do accurate drilling in the mill- vital for gearboxes.

 

The other bits like rotary tables, good milling vices, a T&C grinder, sets of decent drills/mills and all the rest can mount up to the cost of the major machines without trying too hard but then if you are the only guy able to lay down this season’s gold on sunglasses then you might make a killing.

Regards,

 

Alan.

[adyParticipant @ady]

Get an old British WW2 Lathe dude.

 

 They were made to produce in a time of desperation which simply will not be repeated.

 

Everything else is advertising waffle and fluff.

 

Britain was staring at annihilation, wiffle woffle time was over.

Edited By ady on 16/01/2011 03:06:39

[adyParticipant @ady]

Yeh man…buy a bit of chinese cheese…and let the rest of us gather the real deal…

[adyParticipant @ady]

If the lathes market really was a doddle…then the Japanese would have cornered the market decades ago.

 

…but guess what…

 

…they aint even got a look-in… they didn’t even try.

 

They grabbed motorbikes and cars and forklift trucks and 4WD vehicles and blah blah blah.

 

But they never touched lathes.

Edited By ady on 16/01/2011 03:37:03

[adyParticipant @ady]

Even the Japanese couldn’t make a hobby lathe at a profit which was worth spit.

 

 

[adyParticipant @ady]

Maybe they realised that decent lathes last for 50+ years, and looked at alternative markets.

 

Mine is at 60+ years and I have an un-used spare bed if I ever need it over the next few decades.

[Eric LougheedParticipant @ericlougheed54619]

Why not come to UK with a van for a short holiday and check out all the used machinery suppliers that seem to throng the South?

You might end up fully-equipped, but if not you’ll have had an educative holiday.

Eric Lougheed 

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by ady on 16/01/2011 03:16:12:

If the lathes market really was a doddle…then the Japanese would have cornered the market decades ago.

 

…but guess what…

 

…they aint even got a look-in… they didn’t even try.

 

They grabbed motorbikes and cars and forklift trucks and 4WD vehicles and blah blah blah.

 

But they never touched lathes.

Edited By ady on 16/01/2011 03:37:03

 Never heard of Mori Seiki ?

 

 

Select brain before engaging mouth.

 

Just like motorbikes, cars, fork trucks etc they went where the money and the future is.

We stopped making manual hobby lathes as the market is small and limited, they look at different markets.

 

You waffle on about spending eight pounds , seventeen shillings and nine pence on your hobby.

Somebody who wants a production lathe to earn some serious coin doesn’t bat an eye lid at spending 45K on a new Mori Seiki

 

Started in 1948, two years after Myfords brought the ML7 out and current world wide sales are over 180,000 machines.

Now work out 180,000 x selling price against Myfords similar figure against THEIR selling price.

 

John S.

Edited By John Stevenson on 16/01/2011 11:58:50

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Posted by ady on 16/01/2011 03:16:12:

If the lathes market really was a doddle…then the Japanese would have cornered the market decades ago.

 

…but guess what…

 

…they aint even got a look-in… they didn’t even try.

…………………………………

Edited By ady on 16/01/2011 03:37:03

Hi Ady,

 

do you mean like this one that Taskisawa doesn’t make?

 

 

 

Oh but they do!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Perhaps they prefer to make cheese like this Okuma that they sell to industry where there possibly might be more profit rather than hobby  markets (like Myfords)

 

Cheers

 

Terry

 

Edited By Terryd on 16/01/2011 12:40:58

[adyParticipant @ady]

We’re talking about lathes for a part time hobbyist to play with chaps, so one can pootle about in ones shed.

 

45,000 pound commercial mass production CNC toolroom lathes are about as useful as a chocolate teapot.

In your own roundabout way you simply confirmed what I said.

 

Even the Japanese couldn’t make a hobby lathe at a profit which was worth spit.

 

One reason why there IS so little may be because we’d helped them to build a railway in the previous decades and buying japanese was frowned upon until the 1960s.

I know a couple of people who still won’t touch japanese gear.

Edited By ady on 17/01/2011 11:20:02

[Chris BanningerParticipant @chrisbanninger89672]

Even the Japanese couldn’t make a hobby lathe at a profit which was worth spit.

 

 

I owned a Toyo ML210 lathe in the 80’s. Made by Toyo Special Camera. Sold in some countries as Sakai or Toyo/Sakai. Was very well made. About the size of an Emco Unimat but a grass-green color. About the same price too. Toyo also made a larger hobbylathe, the Toyo 360. That one was about the size on an Emco Compact 5. Both models were available with an optional milling column. I think they made some profits in the 80’s. The machines looked very similar if not identical to today’s Proxxon lathes and mills, maybe they bought the rights from Toyo? Chris

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

“If the lathes market really was a doddle…then the Japanese would have cornered the market decades ago.

 

…but guess what…

 

…they aint even got a look-in… they didn’t even try.”

“Even the Japanese couldn’t make a hobby lathe at a profit which was worth spit.”

 

Ady you are mistaken I’m afraid. Toyo and Yamazaki made some excellent hobby size machines and in large numbers. I have used both and they were pretty good, for being micro size. Toyo sold lathes around the world from 1950’s until 1990’s I believe.

 

I’m not disputing that old British lathes and other old lathes from around the world are not cheap dependable workshorses. They are, and I would encourage new people to the hobby to start with them. But to say there were no Japanese hobby lathes made is not correct.

 

JD

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

From what I’v found so far,Sieg lathes although made in China, have Japanese chucks.  he best Chinese lathes have Japanese bearings.   Ian S C

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