Chinese lathes

[Anonymous]

Just a quick note to second what was said above: the ISO9000 system is not a quality system, it’s a consistency system. It simply says you have a set of procedures, and that you stick to those procedures. This, in itself, is a good thing for production. But it has nothing to do with quality. If there is a flaw in the assembly procedures, the system simply ensures that that flaw is present in each unit.

 

Regards,

 

Andrew

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi James Fortin,

 

When you buy a new car (or washing machine etc) how long does it take you to strip down the gearbox and engine, let alone suspension and brakes to make sure they are ‘adjusted properly and will not wear prematurely’?

 

How much do the new seals and oils etc cost?  And do you renew the ball and taper roller bearings?

 

Terry

[James fortinParticipant @jamesfortin46829]

unfortunately im not old enough to drive a car nor have the equipment to overhaul one

 

but when i got my machine i striped it down as far as i could and lapped all the gib strips and surfaces, however i did not change the bearings as i do not  have a hydraulic press but i make sure there is no casting sand in them and that every thing runs smoothly and quietly

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Dear James,

 

My point is that you shouldn’t have to do this work to produce a product which is ‘of satisfactory quality’.  If you accept inferior products it is merely encouraging poor production methods.

 

The Chinese produce wonderful products such as the IPhone, IPad, mobile phones, televisions,cars etc, why should their lathes be of such substandard quality?  Because we accept it, that’s why!

 

Ask your elders about the Japanese Datsun – now Known as Nissan!

 

Terry

[Steve GarnettParticipant @stevegarnett62550]

Posted by Terryd on 22/11/2010 22:24:28:

 

The Chinese produce wonderful products such as the IPhone, IPad, mobile phones, televisions,cars etc, why should their lathes be of such substandard quality?  Because we accept it, that’s why!

 

Whilst that’s undeniably true, it’s not quite all there is to it. In the case of Apple, and several other Western manufacturers that I’m aware of, they either own outright, or at least have a majority share in, the factories that make these goods. In the case of the lathes, I don’t think that this is the case at all, and accordingly it’s much harder for any UK supplier to have the influence they might like over manufacturing processes.

 

But the ‘accept it’ point is well made – I’m aware of several other areas in which it is generally regarded that the Brits will put up with any old rubbish, and in some cases ridiculously high foreign exchange purchase prices, and do no more than moan about it. And that’s wrong. Unfortunately, it’s going to take a massive change in the collective outlook before it alters significantly though. So although Arc Euro Trade’s attitude to lathe setups is on the face of it quite laudable, unfortunately you could also argue that this makes things worse overall, not better – simply because Chinese manufacturers will continue to get away with it.

Edited By Steve Garnett on 22/11/2010 22:44:08

[Anonymous]

To pick up the points made by Steve, I assume that most of the electronic goods that are assembled in China are actually designed by the relevant (western world) company. The goods are assembled in China and then sent to that company for sale by them. While rigorous quality control is required, the Chinese side is essentially assembly only.

 

I further assume that most of the UK retailers of Chinese origin machine tools do not design those tools, but simply import and sell what is supplied. There may well be some feedback and requests for certain features, but that’s not the same as being the original designer.

 

Regards,

 

Andrew

 

PS: The Chinese assembly companies I’ve worked with are very, very keen to learn about the design process. When they do get to grips with it, that’s when we really need to start worrying!

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

At least in the UK, the consumer laws cover you and simply put, the product must be ‘fit for purpose’. If there were sand in the bearings and they became knackered, it’s up to the retailer to fix the problem even if outside a warranty period because there is a reasonable expectation that a lathe should last for many years.

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

And your first port of call is the retailer you got it from since your contract of sale was with them.

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

Just saw TerryD summarised this on the previous page.

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

Posted by Nicholas Farr on 22/11/2010 10:49:07:

Hi Chris, not sure if your steel against steel in this context really has a wear issue, as it is does not have any movement once mounted and in use. I have steel backplates on some of my chucks and have not noticed any problem. they are of course cleaned and lightly oiled prior to mounting them.

 

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 22/11/2010 10:50:13

That’ll help but steel is not self lubricating like iron (it’s the graphite content) and cast iron backplates should be oiled as well. The wear aspect is cumulative over many years of chuck changing. Not the best example I grant you but it was the only one that occured at the time.

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

Posted by ady on 22/11/2010 11:49:49:

I must have at least two far eastern R8 arbor with tapers for Jacobs chucks that are beautifully finished but are eccentric more than .002″.

 

 

 

I made my first ever collet chuck, a biggie for some old ward captan lathe collets, never done anything like it before…ever…and managed 0.0015″.

 

 

 

 

Good but something like an arbor turned or ground between centres should easily exceed this, particularly as its primary criteria for existing is to be concentric. For an R8 to Jacobs Taper, you should be able to shift that decimal point at least one step to the left. We’re not talking dimensional accuracy (although the whole purpose of grinding is to produce a superior product) so much as runout  between one end and the other.

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

If you want to see Chinese lathes built to a proper high standard look at Dalian Machine Tool Group products (DMTG) but I am afraid the prices are also real.

[Richard ParsonsParticipant @richardparsons61721]

 

I know that one should not strip down a new machine but in most engineering companies where I have worked the machine supplier or the machine manufacturer normally provides a commissioning engineer(s) who works with the companies own millwrights to erect and commission the machine. We pay some one hundredth part of the price they paid, so it is up to us. As to grauching or crunching bearings (with sand, swaff or some such in it.  It would be up to the supplier to do zummert about it and PDQ.

In my case I did not strip down the saddle I just washed it out with Esso Blue (Voo Voo Voo), flushed it with flushing oil and re filled with EP90 oil. After doing an in-out traverse test the whole thing went solid and made a nasty Gerrring noise. I hit the ‘Jesus button’ PDQ. I stripped down the saddle and found the ‘curse of Fu Manchu’ jammed between the cogs, (actually it may have been a menu for the local takeaway) but as I cannot read Chinese I have no real idea what it was. I thought of taking it down to the local Chinky take away and asked it they had it on their menu.  I reported the problem to the supplier and sent them the evidence. Within a few days a packet came with the all the new bits in it. Job done!

I know I mentioned the sale of goods act but the local trading standards folk were always ‘In conference’, ‘on a course’, ‘In court’ or whatever euphemism meant ‘down the Pub’. The last thing they wanted was a complaint, the might have to do some work.

[Ian AbbottParticipant @ianabbott31222]

My “Chinky” wife enjoys reading the packing from “Chinese” shipped stuff and we don’t need to go down to the “Chinese” take away for translation.

 

Ian 

[Steve GarnettParticipant @stevegarnett62550]

I don’t have to go far for a translation either – just next door, where I have a Chinese neighbour who translated for a living. Even though she’s very happy to do it, I find that I don’t need to use the facility very often…

[Sam StonesParticipant @samstones42903]

Richard,

Although the message was perhaps unreadable, my theory is that the piece of paper was one or other of the following :-

A `Do Not Open’ instruction, ie. the type of message you can only read if you DO open IT.

A piece of `Kilroy was Here’ graffiti.

An order for Fish & Chips – (Home-Delivery).

A `help/rescue’ note from Sum Ting Wong.

 

Sam

 

 

[Jens Eirik Skogstad 1Participant @jenseirikskogstad1]

Posted by Richard Parsons on 23/11/2010 15:51:20:
 

 I reported the problem to the supplier and sent them the evidence. Within a few days a packet came with the all the new bits in it. Job done!

 

 Finally getting a new lathe for the law guarantee and purchase rights since the previous lathe rattled and yelled because of foundry and chip .. But what about the new lathe is as dirty as the early lathe? Not good to know!

Edited By Jens Eirik Skogstad on 23/11/2010 21:25:45

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Jens,

 

Send it back, and keep doing it until it is right.  The supplier will soon insist on them being right from the factory if we all keep complaining.  Remember “the squeaky wheel gets the grease”.

 

 

Also Richard,

 

I have a few Chinese and Thai friends who are very happy to translate.  Without racist connotations.

 

Terry

[Richard ParsonsParticipant @richardparsons61721]

Thank you all for your helpful offers to translate the strange document which as I remember it seemed to be a list with boxes on it. It was pink and although of had been a bit chewed up by getting mixed up with the gear wheels, it had one or two green ‘Chops’ (rubber stamps on it). It may have been a ‘Top Secrete Burn Before Reading’ type of document. I still think it was the wrapper for a Pestilence Powder or the ‘curse of Dr Fu Manchu on all round eyed devils’( shades of Sax Romer). I do not think it was an order for ‘Fission chips – home delivery’ as it did not glow green in the dark.  I suspect the chief inspector (Mr Wun Thou Wong) was not on duty that day.
The lathe which has its limitations because of the design of the cross slide and with the pulley wheel sizes on the countershaft is very good. It suffers from about 0.002” ‘spring on the tool carrier which I have now traced to the ‘bed sweepers’ on the saddle. These are plastic and may well wear in or one day.  If I can find which box I packed my confounded ‘Round Tooit’ in I will do something about the problem. (I may have to make a new one day.) but to do that i will have to find the original. 

Edited By Richard Parsons on 24/11/2010 10:57:21

[Ted Smith 1Participant @tedsmith1]

Hi there you guys,

                           I cannot understand all you guys that complain about your machines that you bought from any of suppliers in this country.

 I have in my workshop,a Chester Conquest, Also a chester DB10VS both have given me great service ,I also have a Warco Minor milling machine and far eastern made drill. It seems to me that you are complaining to the wrong people ie onhere instead of taking your complaint

to your suppliers. I know for a fact that both Chester and Warco will do all that they can to solve your problem. Or is it that you ask to much from your machines! Or are you just moaning for the sake of posting on this forum to get attention??

                                                                                                       Ted

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi There

I have spoken to Warco.

Anyone who requires a spare parts list can get one from

 

spares@warco.co.uk

 

Please quote model number so the right list can be sent.

 

The lathe in the heading photo is a rather old one and is probably well over 5 years old.

You can tell because this lacks the yellow paint that has been used for the last five years or so. It may even be over 9 years old.

 

It is clearly wrong to label Warco products as poor quality on the basis of one lathe that was purchased (probably secondhand) and may be, as in this case, over 9 years old.

regards David

[Martin WParticipant @martinw]

Other than the photos in the album I find it curious why there is no contribution from ‘Lathejack’ in this thread. Post a few pictures with the odd description but no further contributions.  WHY ??.

 

No mention of when the item was bought or from whom, if as David suggests, the lathe is up to 9 years old and its provenance is unknown then the corrosion could be from lack of or poor maintenance by the previous owner or owners. Yet without this info Warco is blamed for all of the problems encountered.

 

Well ‘Lathejack’ lets have some details of the machine as to where it was purchased from and when, is it a secondhand machine and some indication of its age!! If brand new from Warco you have cause to complain but if not then *******.

 

Usual disclaimers etc. re involvement with companies concerned.

 

Martin

 

 

PS

 

Another difference is that the lathe in the album has what appears to be a saddle locking handle which is not apparent on illustrations for the GH 1322/1330 lathes currently on offer from Warco.

 

Edited By Martin W on 24/11/2010 17:01:01

Edited By Martin W on 24/11/2010 17:03:37

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Reading a lot of the comments on this thread are making me laugh.>>

> >

For example:>>

> >

“Lathejack, send a lot of pictures and a description at a bad work on the lathe produced by factory in China. Hope they will improve the quality of the work on the lathes..
Your lathe are produced by Sieg, send to this anout your complains: http://www.siegind.com/
 
You can not rely on the workers in China will do it a good job..
As rule i will take a inspection and wash all dirt/sand etc and oil/grease all moving parts before use. I did with my Sieg lathe and i am satisfied to use a cleaned and adjusted lathe
Edited By Jens Eirik Skogstad on 21/11/2010 09:58:04”>>

> >

Whilst I agree with the second paragraph of the poster, I would say that the first paragraph is totally wrong in as much as this machine is NOT MADE BY SIEG. You should really check your facts before posting them. Your actions can have an effect on the livelihood of the sellers of SIEG products, such as ARC!. Put yourself in the sellers shoes and see how you would react to inaccurate information. You would probably use colourful language…as John Stevenson did. In fact, I am using them now >>

> >

As we are on the subject, FACT: “Weiss” is not a factory. Also, before anyone brings “Real Bull” into the picture, FACT: “Real Bull” went bankrupt earlier this year. Their creditors have started off smaller factories. I am more than happy to consider legal challenges to my comments from any one, because I know that they are FACT.>>

> >

In my opinion, the moderator, considering his position as editor for a magazine has a responsibility to check these facts before allowing this thread to go on for so long before commenting, rather than commenting on JSs colourful language – who does know the fact. Also, before anyone says anything – yes JS does do sub-contract work for ARC. The point still remains: How would YOU react if wrong information effects YOUR livelihood ?>

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Here is rest of the message:

As for the “not fit for purpose” comments, as a lawyer once told me, “we live in the real world”. All I would say, is as follows:>>

> >

1.     For the price we pay – i.e. importer as well as customer, we get good value for money.

2.     “Fit for purpose” – this would have to pass a “reasonableness test” in a court of law…if it ever reached that far. If it did, there is a good possibility that according to this reasonableness test, you will find that the machines are fit for milling/turning. This issue is yet to be tested, because in most cases the matter is resolved before it reaches that far.

3.     Has the person who has made this complaint even spoken to Warco for a solution?

4.     You get what you pay for. If you want a Myford – pay for it. If you want a preparation service – pay for it.

> >

You do not have to agree with me. I am sure many won’t!. At the end of the day, if these people who make such “legal comments” as well as the legislators have their way, there will not be a model engineering hobby left in the whole of Europe…let alone U.K., because quite simply….you wouldn’t be able to afford it. I agree that the assembly quality of Chinese machines is variable. That is the way it is. I agree that there is a case to be answered if there is an extremely poor quality product being put on the market. This is definitely NOT one of those cases, and to “attack” reputable firms such as Warco without knowing your facts, or without giving them the opportunity to look into your problem – if it is a valid one, – is simply wrong. You should use your time more productively to make some swarf.

> >

Ketan at ARC.

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

I did not appreciate that the lathe was not bought new by “Lathejack” so that does explain some but not all the shortcomings. I too would like to hear from the man himself!

Tony

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